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iron warrior list
iron within,iron without!

Chaos Lord (HQ) @ 130Pts
2xLightning Claws+Combi-Melta

8 Chosen Chaos Space Marines (Elites) @ 239 Pts
MoCG+Flamer (x3)
Champion w/2xLightning Claws
Chaos Rhino

Chaos Dreadnought (Elites) @ 105 Pts
TL Heavy Bolter+missile launcher

10 Chaos Space Marines (Troops) @ 240 Pts
MoCG+Meltagun (x2)
Champion w/Combi-Melta
Chaos Rhino

10 Chaos Space Marines (Troops) @ 240 Pts
MoCG+Meltagun (x2)
Champion w/Combi-Melta
Chaos Rhino

10 Chaos Space Marines (Troops) @ 240 Pts
MoCG+Meltagun (x2)
Champion w/Combi-Melta
Chaos Rhino

Chaos Defiler (Heavy Support) @ 150 Pts

Chaos Defiler (Heavy Support) @ 150 Pts

Models in Army: 46
Total Army Cost: 1499

Pretty cool. As I recall, I wrote a similar list once, and never got around to doing it. Pity, really; Hope you meet with more success!

I know it's drastic, but there are other heavy support that survive a lot longer and provide worth more than Vindicators. But fielding them in pairs is always fearsome, and usually works out.

I'd say drop all the melta-bombs and try to fit a champ with a power weapon, or a power fist maybe. Can you add a champion to the Chosen Space Marines maybe? I can't remember if they have the option or not.

Also those six raptors could be dropped to half strength with a decent volley in just one round, and then they might just immediately fall back, They do have great shock effect, and support for a round, but then they'd be gunned down. Perhaps trading them out for another heavy?

I'm surprised you didn't take any oblits seeing how they're one of the few legions that actually should be able to field a decent amount of them.

As much as I like raptors I agree with koski. You should drop them for some oblits or havocs. Iron warriors are all about mechanization and heavy support.

I'd drop the Raptors and maybe 1 or 2 CSM from each unit and take 3x Obliterators instead. Obliterators, IMO, have a bit more survivability and certainly more adaptability than havocs. Though that depends one what you're fighting, in the end.

Though melta guns are good, you're going to need at least some long range firepower, so it would be a good idea to drop the raptors and a few chaos marines to get some obliterators (I'm recommending them simply because the versatility will be good for this list).

Seconding the Oblits, they are the Iron Warrior 'thing' along with the vindi's and lots of ranged fire power.

Thirding the Oblits; Raptors aren't nearly as fluffy, anyway. The choice to drop Meltabombs for PWs/PFs really comes down to your taste and what you think you'll be facing.

Out of curiosity, what's the Lord's role in your strategy and how will you deploy him?

Halsfield wrote:I'm surprised you didn't take any oblits seeing how they're one of the few legions that actually should be able to field a decent amount of them.

As much as I like raptors I agree with koski. You should drop them for some oblits or havocs. Iron warriors are all about mechanization and heavy support.

I'll disagree on 50% of that. As a former IW player, Iron Warriors were never about mechanization (APCs) to me, but are all about heavies to be sure.

Vindicators are seige-breakers and can work defensively/offensively in a seige role. I think there are few support choices as IW-centric as that. A Rhino heavy army with
tons of Oblits isn't really an IW army fluff-wise. Most seige armies do consist primarily of troops backed up by tons of heavies. GW literature has also led many
to believe that elite choices are also important. As with vanilla SM, terminators/champions are often in the thick of battle. Therefore Chosen/Terminators/Raptors
are all good fluffy choices for counter-assaulting advancing troops or as fast assault on enemy fire support. Besides, IW termies look insanely awesome!

5th edition has made us all start using APC's and meltaguns on every squad, but I see the bulk of an IW army as implacable and slowly advancing/firing, not rushing up
with a rhino and melta-gunning a vehicle. I'd like to see more medium/long range weaponry in a fluff-oriented IW army--lascannons, autocannons, missile launchers.

When Zain puts it that way. A lot of it seems unfluffy.

But I still think that Obliterators if fielded should be attempted in squads of 2, they can only shoot at one target. and everyone in the squad has to use the same weapon. Just fielding two of them for 150 points would help bolster a many things, and add a very pesky aspect to the army. If you're fielding three, just try to add one more, or drop the third and try to find useful points elsewhere? They're amazing in threes still though don't get me wrong.

The problem with the unfluffy/fluffy thing is that rhinos are cheap ablative armour and mobility - so cheap that I think they're almost mandatory for any SM/CSM squad. A real siege force would be mobs of infantry advancing with close-range weapons, covered by HW infantry and artillery. That's kind of hard to do effectively in the current codex. Why can't Devastator just say this is a line-breaking force, to smash through the enemies' trench lines and drive straight to his ammo dumps/command centres? Not all entrenched warfare is medieval-style 'surround a fortress and storm it'.

Anyway, I would suggest stripping down the chosen to 5 men (if they're an outflanking suicide tankhunting squad, they don't really need the bodies) and losing the raptors (as a mediocre assault unit, they need a lot of bodies to be effective, currently it's just not a very threatening unit).

That's about 200 pts free, replace all the meltabombs with PFs (a much more versatile option IMO), daemonically possess both vindicators (I think this upgrade can help a lot on such tanks) and get a predator w/autocannon and HB sponsons (your army could use some of that mid-strength long-range firepower).

raptors are gone and dakka preda added and why the iw dont use blitzrieg as tactic?
@owain lord joins the chosen and never leaves

The chaos lord's high initiative is been wasted with that power fist. If you don't want a daemon weapon then a standard power weapon would be fine.

Rest looks ok however take out the vindicators and predator and you then have nothing to deal with hordes. Majority of your army is anti mech. Add some flamers, you don't need that many meltas - I'd probably throw them in the chosen instead as you don't really need 4 meltas and 4 flamers will seriously put the pain in.

mercer wrote:The chaos lord's high initiative is been wasted with that power fist. If you don't want a daemon weapon then a standard power weapon would be fine.

Rest looks ok however take out the vindicators and predator and you then have nothing to deal with hordes. Majority of your army is anti mech. Add some flamers, you don't need that many meltas - I'd probably throw them in the chosen instead as you don't really need 4 meltas and 4 flamers will seriously put the pain in.

flamers and claws added
claws are there to support assaut as if you can flame them you can assaut too

Zain60 wrote:

Halsfield wrote:I'm surprised you didn't take any oblits seeing how they're one of the few legions that actually should be able to field a decent amount of them.

As much as I like raptors I agree with koski. You should drop them for some oblits or havocs. Iron warriors are all about mechanization and heavy support.

I'll disagree on 50% of that. As a former IW player, Iron Warriors were never about mechanization (APCs) to me, but are all about heavies to be sure.

Vindicators are seige-breakers and can work defensively/offensively in a seige role. I think there are few support choices as IW-centric as that. A Rhino heavy army with
tons of Oblits isn't really an IW army fluff-wise. Most seige armies do consist primarily of troops backed up by tons of heavies. GW literature has also led many
to believe that elite choices are also important. As with vanilla SM, terminators/champions are often in the thick of battle. Therefore Chosen/Terminators/Raptors
are all good fluffy choices for counter-assaulting advancing troops or as fast assault on enemy fire support. Besides, IW termies look insanely awesome!

5th edition has made us all start using APC's and meltaguns on every squad, but I see the bulk of an IW army as implacable and slowly advancing/firing, not rushing up
with a rhino and melta-gunning a vehicle. I'd like to see more medium/long range weaponry in a fluff-oriented IW army--lascannons, autocannons, missile launchers.

Based off of the above quote, I have an idea and have dowsed myself in flame-retardant gel in anticipation of the flaming I will receive.

Use Thousand Sons marines and model the champ/sorc with a heavy weapon and make use of one of the shooting attacks.

So what this gives you is the slow moving, bolter blazing siege marines with invulnerable saves that represent the cybernetic prostheses. "Iron within, iron throughout" or something along those lines.

The champ isn't a sorcerer, not on the table top anyway. He'll use the sorc's rules but they'll be represented by a heavy weapon. It'll be tough to play competitively since they are expensive and slowwwwww but it'll be fluffy as it is represented on the table-top.

Deuce11 wrote:
"Iron within, iron throughout"

iron within, iron without
iron within, iron without
iron within, iron without
iron within, iron without
but anyway good idea

Zain60 wrote:

I'll disagree on 50% of that. As a former IW player, Iron Warriors were never about mechanization (APCs) to me, but are all about heavies to be sure.

"Even before being reunited with their primarch, Perturabo, the Iron Warriors were known for an affinity with technology and the clinical application of logic to military problems. This affinity was channeled by Perturabo, a skilled practitioner of siegecraft, into the mastery of that form of warfare. These abilities were increased by cross-training with the Adeptus Mechanicus. Their Warsmiths could match skills with Magi and it is said that Perturabo could beat any and all in the art of machine engineering.

They are ALL about mechanization, machines, and combining machines into their infantry. Mechanization = any kind of vehicle/machine/artillery piece/bionics/warsmiths/oblits/etc. They are very close to the iron hands(love of bionics, ties to adeptus mechanicus, excel at fighting/building hardened emplacements) without the obsessive compulsive need to change themselves into machines simply for the reason that they hate their humanity for its imperfections. Ever heard "iron within, iron without" ?

I would bring Oblits. I hate them personally but they are hard as nails.

I never thought of the iron Warriors as Fluffy. HAHA.

I personally find oblits and defilers to be good and fluffy for iron warriors. As previously mentioned Iron Warriors are one of the few legions that should be allowed to field obliterators. And Iron Warriors did use Defiler for their seige crafts.

I think defilers would do many things for this list. They would provide a nice large blast at long range to support the rhino rush. When it comes to defiler vs vindicator, defilers have longer range and a slightly less powerful weapon. However defilers can move and shoot, and fleet. They have other roles such as tarpitting and in CC are effective anti-tank. Defilers also come standard with daemonic poession.

When it comes to demolisher cannon vs battle cannon. Battle cannon is ap 3 so it will destroy MEQ's, not to mention the fact that is strenght 8 so terminators at Toughness 4 wont get armor anyways. I think Strength 10 AP2 is a waste when Strength 8 AP3 does the same job and at better range.

Defilers are versatile and good shooting magnets allowing your rhino rush to advance. They only cost a few points more and come with other weapons as well. I think they are something this list needs.

mrwittwer wrote: not to mention the fact that is strenght 8 so terminators at Toughness 4 wont get armor anyways. I think Strength 10 AP2 is a waste when Strength 8 AP3 does the same job and at better range.

Could be wrong but I don't see how str 8/ap3 avoids armor saves on terminators. Even if it was ap2 they would get their invul save and even if it is instant death they still get their armor save first. It is only unsaved wounds that are subject to instant death. The only models that need to fear instant death are those with multiple wounds (which is why the rules for instant death are under the multiple wounds heading). Since most terms still only have 1 wound it doesnt really matter.

str8 is still awesome at wounding, and terms are great at shooting, so you will still get plenty of wounds even with 2+ saves. The 72" range really only comes into play on huge boards or apocalypse games, but the 24" on the vindi's cannon can certainly be a hindrance if shooting across the long edge of the board for whatever reason.

Does strength double the toughness still allow armor saves? or am i getting rules mixed up with older editions. I always thought double toughness ignored armor, but now that i look in the rule book i cannot find anything in the armor saves section that says that.

You can't find it because that rule doesn't exist in the 5th ed rulebook. Inflicting instant death or 2x str to toughness does not equate to ignoring all armor saves. Generally those weapons would be AP 1 or 2, but not all and hence the confusion maybe.

Example: The blast master does not ignore the armor saves of Terminators to to lack of signifcant AP.
Should the terminator armor fail...the termy would be instant killed, but most likely he'll just have one wound which would be moot.

I like the idea of defilers supporting your advancing troops. They're a lot harder to take down, and lock units in CC, so if they get immobilized they still hold down things. IW defilers are really awesome looking anyways.

Easy change but questionable:

Drop two champions w combi-weapons from the CSM squad. Its only an upgrade for 1 more attack 1ld, and if you drop two that frees 40 points.

Then replace both vindicators with defilers, I'd suggest just normal fit.

That makes your army very mech heavy and a lot of armies will run into problems completely destroying both of your defilers, as compared to vindicators that are made useless very quickly. Just an idea.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think your looking at three quality heavy support choices if you switch to defilers. AND 39 3+ power armor saves rolling at you all with rhinos. The fact that everything is beefed out makes it even more killy. It looks much better than before already
.

Halsfield wrote:

Zain60 wrote:

I'll disagree on 50% of that. As a former IW player, Iron Warriors were never about mechanization (APCs) to me, but are all about heavies to be sure.

"Even before being reunited with their primarch, Perturabo, the Iron Warriors were known for an affinity with technology and the clinical application of logic to military problems. This affinity was channeled by Perturabo, a skilled practitioner of siegecraft, into the mastery of that form of warfare. These abilities were increased by cross-training with the Adeptus Mechanicus. Their Warsmiths could match skills with Magi and it is said that Perturabo could beat any and all in the art of machine engineering.

They are ALL about mechanization, machines, and combining machines into their infantry. Mechanization = any kind of vehicle/machine/artillery piece/bionics/warsmiths/oblits/etc. They are very close to the iron hands(love of bionics, ties to adeptus mechanicus, excel at fighting/building hardened emplacements) without the obsessive compulsive need to change themselves into machines simply for the reason that they hate their humanity for its imperfections. Ever heard "iron within, iron without" ?

You're making supposition here. Iron within, Iron without can be interpreted differently, ie, bionics, augmentation, machine, siege building. That doesn't really support the argument that a completely mechanized rhino force is 'fluffy.' The litmus test here is, if you replaced this list's name with 'Vanilla SM using CSM rules' would there be anyone here going 'oooh looks like an Iron Warriors list!' ?

I doubt it. I'm not saying the list sucks. I'm just hesitant to call it fluffy.

if its really THAT big broblem to you zain60?
anyway i added the defillers to the list

@the most recent list:

Lord: where does he go? I hope you are not suggesting chosen, that would be a waste.

Chosen:
ICON of Chaos Glory, not mark.
3 Flamers is cool, but you want to outflank with this squad, which means no Lord joining them.
Champ with claws: meh, they are not supposed to be in combat and meltas/fist seem more important.

Shooty dread: meh, it should be combatty and one shooty to advance...not to hang back and shoot your guys in the back.

CSM troops: no fists?

Defilers are cool, but Oblits and Vindis are fluffier with respect to the traditional stuff.

no offence but you shove pf a say where
about the  chosen it is so hard to think outside the box?
and i have tons of melta already
as said the vindis are easier to wreck than defillers
and why you suppose that dread will camp and the dread will only have change to come mad 1/6

no offence but you shove pf a say where

What?

about the chosen it is so hard to think outside the box?

So, what is so special about it? Flamers are nice, as said, but there's no such thing as too much melta, CSM standards are decent vs. hordes.
But as said flamers are fine too.
What is so 'ouside the box' about it that you can see?

as said the vindis are easier to wreck than defillers

Depends... do you baby the side armor on the vindis?
Otherwise Vindis have better armor, Easier to get cover.
Defilers are not as fluffy, huge profile and less AV upfront... it's a taste issue, neither is more durable over the other.

and why you suppose that dread will camp and the dread will only have change to come mad 1/6

Why? Because 2 hvy weapons were equipped...if it's moving forward, a DCCW is needed to remain flexible...otherwise, a 2 hvy weapon setup screams backfield.