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I've asked a couple of people about these thing but i want a broader range of answers.

1) Vanguard veterans are not listed as having decent of angels in their special rules as so many of the other entries do. But the codex states that any model with a jump pack has decent of angels. Do they have it or not?

2) Sanguinors ability to buff a sergant says RANDOMLY choose. Does this mean you just choose one of your sergants or does this mean you do a roll or something?

Thanks

~Phish

Phish Skills wrote:I've asked a couple of people about these thing but i want a broader range of answers.

1) Vanguard veterans are not listed as having decent of angels in their special rules as so many of the other entries do. But the codex states that any model with a jump pack has decent of angels. Do they have it or not?

2) Sanguinors ability to buff a sergant says RANDOMLY choose. Does this mean you just choose one of your sergants or does this mean you do a roll or something?

Thanks

~Phish

1) Well, if they have Jump packs... they do. If they don't, they don't. The reason they don't have it listed in their Special Rules is for some reason, only units that have Jump Packs as standard have it listed, while units who have to buy them extra don't, but still have it anyway due to the Jump Pack Rules. This is actually interesting as Assault Marines (who can choose to remove the Jump packs) KEEP the DoA rule even without the Packs, meaning they only Scatter D6" in Planetstrike even if they have no Jump Packs!

2) You have to randomly choose somehow. How you do it is for you to figure out. Flip a Coin, Roll a Die, Draw Straws or Sacrifice a Virgin Ewe under the light of the Full moon and see how many Organs pop out. Easiest way imo is to use a Dice though

For the answers to even more questions, check out my BA FAQ in my sig

1) vanguard vets with purchased jumpacks have descent of angels, ones in pods/foot etc do not.

2) It says randomly determine which sarge, therefore you randomly determine it. Its up to you to find a random way that your opponent is cool within order to do that.

Ok dokey!

Thank youuu

~Phish

Phish Skills wrote:
2) Sanguinors ability to buff a sergant says RANDOMLY choose. Does this mean you just choose one of your sergants or does this mean you do a roll or something?

Thanks

~Phish

You could put all the sergent models in a sock and throw them on the ground. The first unbroken model surely has been blessed and therefor receives the benefits.

The first time I pick a sergeant I will actually pick the Sergeants I do not want to not be Sanguinor's chosen. Then, next game, I will pick the one I want. That way I will be randomly choosing the sergeant. Because I want to interpret the choice as being random and not the sergeant as being chosen "at" random. That is the rule as intended. Or is it only, as written.

How is that random?

Teeef wrote:The first time I pick a sergeant I will actually pick the Sergeants I do not want to not be Sanguinor's chosen. Then, next game, I will pick the one I want. That way I will be randomly choosing the sergeant.

If you're picking the sergeant, it's not random. It's you picking a sergeant.

Line up your sergeants and roll a D6 for them. Drop them all in a hat and get your opponent to pick one out. Go 'Eenie Meanie Mynie Mo...' (although that's not really random, either)... whatever... but it needs to be a random process. You don't get to choose.

jbunny wrote:

Phish Skills wrote:
2) Sanguinors ability to buff a sergant says RANDOMLY choose. Does this mean you just choose one of your sergants or does this mean you do a roll or something?

Thanks

~Phish

You could put all the sergent models in a sock and throw them on the ground. The first unbroken model surely has been blessed and therefor receives the benefits.

Sometimes I think I would like to do that with BA

Didn't realize you have to randomly select the anointed sergeant... Would suck if it was a Devastator sergeant... On the flipside I am liking the random element reintroduced to my favorite chapter.

G

insaniak wrote:

Teeef wrote:The first time I pick a sergeant I will actually pick the Sergeants I do not want to not be Sanguinor's chosen. Then, next game, I will pick the one I want. That way I will be randomly choosing the sergeant.

If you're picking the sergeant, it's not random. It's you picking a sergeant.

Line up your sergeants and roll a D6 for them. Drop them all in a hat and get your opponent to pick one out. Go 'Eenie Meanie Mynie Mo...' (although that's not really random, either)... whatever... but it needs to be a random process. You don't get to choose.

First, I wasn't being completely serious. So apologies.

But choosing randomly and chosen at random are not one in the same. It is a fine point to be sure and I wouldn't spend time arguing about it. If I was to walk through a field randomly choosing flowers I would be picking each one intentionally but my method would be random. "Chosen randomly" or "randomly chosen" can, and as in the above description does, mean that the method of choosing can be random as opposed to the choice itself being random.

I think that the rule could be interpreted to mean that you randomly choose one sergeant in your army to receive the sacred blessing of the Sanguinor. Under my method the sergeant chosen is not necessarily the same one at any time and is not chosen for the same reason every time. Therefore, by definition my method is random.

If you want to create a method or system to randomly choose a sergeant then you are using a method to randomly choose the sergeant. This is not the same as if you randomly choose one sergeant. One could argue that if the author intended your suggested method he would have put in a simple system as is often done in the game such as roll-off or some other method.

But any system you chose is adding something that is not in the codex and/or the BRB. I cannot think of another example in the game where you are asked to invent a process to interpret a rule.

Teeef wrote: If I was to walk through a field randomly choosing flowers I would be picking each one intentionally but my method would be random. "Chosen randomly" or "randomly chosen" can, and as in the above description does, mean that the method of choosing can be random as opposed to the choice itself being random.

I think that the rule could be interpreted to mean that you randomly choose one sergeant in your army to receive the sacred blessing of the Sanguinor. Under my method the sergeant chosen is not necessarily the same one at any time and is not chosen for the same reason every time. Therefore, by definition my method is random.

If you want to create a method or system to randomly choose a sergeant then you are using a method to randomly choose the sergeant. This is not the same as if you randomly choose one sergeant. One could argue that if the author intended your suggested method he would have put in a simple system as is often done in the game such as roll-off or some other method.

But any system you chose is adding something that is not in the codex and/or the BRB. I cannot think of another example in the game where you are asked to invent a process to interpret a rule.

You do not know what random means.

MasterSlowPoke wrote:You do not know what random means.

random [adjective] 1 a : lacking a definite plan, purpose, or pattern.

Gee the first definition "1a" and I am right. Lacking a plan. Lacking a purpose. Lacking a pattern.

All of these are achievable without chance. Why do you insist in adding chance?

I do not see the word "chance," or the words "lacking any volition," in the definition of random.

* face palm *

G

You do have a definite plan, purpose, and pattern.

Game 1: You choose Sargent A to get the boost.
Game 2: You choose Sargent C to get the boost.
Game 3: You choose Sargent F to get the boost.
Game 4: You choose Sargent D to get the boost.

Your methodology is completely predetermined.

Game one I pick the first sergeant I pull out of my box.
Game two I pick the first sergeant opposite your strongest squad – whatever that is.
Game three I pick a sergeant who is closest to the enemy.
Game four I pick the last sergeant I pull out of my box.

In all four games it could be the same or a different sergeant. But they were all chosen randomly.

Under your method if it is dawn of war I cannot pick a sergeant at all because I can only deploy my Assault Squad, their Razorback and my HQ and so by your definition of random I would be choosing the sergeant which according to you I cannot do.

what you are describing is subjective, not random.

- personal comment removed by moderator. Stick to the argument, not the poster -

If I ask you to pick a card at random you are choosing "subjectively" too but you are choosing and the result is random. If I ask you to pick up the first rock you see, you are choosing randomly and subjectively.

I am not seeing why a mechanic of chance is called for. Especially since the rule book and the codex do not give a mechanic for one.

The part I find silly is that there is an insistence that random "requires" no volition as opposed to no pattern.

Honestly. If I was playing someone who wanted to make up some rule for random determination I would let them. It is a game after all. But that wouldn't mean they were not adding a method or rule that was not in the codex.

Teeef wrote:If I ask you to pick a card at random you are choosing "subjectively" too but you are choosing and the result is random.

The result in this case is random because he won't know what the card is that he is choosing.

If I ask you to pick up the first rock you see, you are choosing randomly and subjectively.

If you ask him to pick up the first rock he sees, and he picks up the first rock he sees, that's not random. That's a defined process.

I am not seeing why a mechanic of chance is called for. Especially since the rule book and the codex do not give a mechanic for one.

Chance is called for because that's what 'random' requires. If you are choosing yourself, that's not random. That's a choice made by you. Whether your reasons for it are the same as the reasons you pick the next time, you have a specific reason (whether consciously or unconsciously) for choosing that model... and so the result is not random. It is the result of choice.

The part I find silly is that there is an insistence that random "requires" no volition as opposed to no pattern.

Ignoring for a moment that most people are actually incapable of being consistently random (our brains tend to insert a pattern in there somewhere, even if we don't realise it) the problem with your method is that unless you are playing against the same opponent every game, your opponent isn't seeing a random choice. He's seeing you pick whichever model you like. He has no way of knowing that you have no pattern for your selection, and that you chose a different model last game (or didn't, as your lack of pattern may decree), or that you selected your model last game using different criteria. All he sees is that the rule calls for you to choose a random model, and you are instead picking the model you want.


So allowing your own choice is never going to appear fair to your opponent. That in itself should suggest that it's not the way to play it.

I think you miss the point. The result of the random selection has to not be effected by you i presume. Something that is COMPLETELY at random. Things that this apply to are dice rolls, coin flips and pulling sergants out of a hat.

The methods that you are preposing are subject to being effected by you or your opponent. E.g. You could line up the sergant you want to recieve the blessing opposite the strongest squad so that when you choose this method you can actual predetermine the result.

I would take random to mean human interfereance would still make it random. (e.g. Trying to spin a dice to land on 6 won't actually make it land on 6 100% of the time.)

Thats just my interepretation of random anyway.

Teeef wrote:Game one I pick the first sergeant I pull out of my box.
Game two I pick the first sergeant opposite your strongest squad – whatever that is.
Game three I pick a sergeant who is closest to the enemy.
Game four I pick the last sergeant I pull out of my box.

In all four games it could be the same or a different sergeant. But they were all chosen randomly.

Under your method if it is dawn of war I cannot pick a sergeant at all because I can only deploy my Assault Squad, their Razorback and my HQ and so by your definition of random I would be choosing the sergeant which according to you I cannot do.

Play the game, not the rules.

If I were the OP's opponent, I would demand the right to inspect the mechanism being used to perform the random selection, and expect a replacement mechanism in the event that the inspection were not possible or practical. Naturally, in the required waiver I would promise to do my best to make sure that the OP was reassembled properly without any damage or missing parts.

It doesn't really matter to me. I don't field the saguinor i like his rules and stat line but for me he's a little expensive especially since i don't use sanguinary guard that much and i think some of the other HQ choices are better and cheaper. Plus i just think the model is too dramatic and not gritty enough for me.


IMHO of course =P

I was arguing with someone at my FLGS about the descent of angels rule for Vanguard. On what page# does it say all Jump troops get it? I knew I read it, but couldn't find the rule when challenged.

KidSquid wrote:I was arguing with someone at my FLGS about the descent of angels rule for Vanguard. On what page# does it say all Jump troops get it? I knew I read it, but couldn't find the rule when challenged.

Wargear sectin of the Jump pack.

KidSquid wrote:I was arguing with someone at my FLGS about the descent of angels rule for Vanguard. On what page# does it say all Jump troops get it? I knew I read it, but couldn't find the rule when challenged.

It's in the Jump Pack rules.

Gwar! wrote:

KidSquid wrote:I was arguing with someone at my FLGS about the descent of angels rule for Vanguard. On what page# does it say all Jump troops get it? I knew I read it, but couldn't find the rule when challenged.

It's in the Jump Pack rules.

I finally ninja'ed Gwar. I can now leave this forum happy.

jbunny wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

KidSquid wrote:I was arguing with someone at my FLGS about the descent of angels rule for Vanguard. On what page# does it say all Jump troops get it? I knew I read it, but couldn't find the rule when challenged.

It's in the Jump Pack rules.

I finally ninja'ed Gwar. I can now leave this forum happy.

By 6 seconds! And I live in Ireland, where the Internet is worse than Nigeria!

Hey I got to take a win when ever i can.

Thanks, I knew I wasn't just pulling that out of thin air.