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So Ive lately wondered why I never see anyone use squigs or squig hoppers? Is it the rules or just the cost of models? Ive been considering trying them out for when I restart my O&G army but wanted some imput on it first...

I figure if I do run them I would do so with 10 "herds." That would give me a 50 man unit (propbably run them 7x7 with one extra goblin) for 300 points... They definitely arent going to get wiped out easily and they are immune to psychology so they wont be prone to panic and are most definitely willing to munch on some big terrifying fellers. So they will definitely get into combat, and ontop of that they have two attacks each at ws4 str5... I think thats pretty reasonable. The only major downside I see to squig units is the lack of armor. Not to mention if 8th edition rumors of 10 wide rank bonus is true (which I hope isnt true) then I could run them 10x5 and would be splended I think.... So what are your thoughts on squigs and their usage/non usage in game?
-Rather than start a new thread in the you make the call (since this might be odvious and Im just blind), when in combat and I take woulds, do I pull out the herders or the squigs? It says you can place the herders anywhere within the unit that you wish, so I assume you pull out what ever the enemy is in contact with?

Ok so how about the squig hoppers? I think if I ran these guys I would just buy a single full unit of 10 (150 points). They are basically a faster (or slower!) moving unit of the above squigs, without the chance of loosing the goblins and the squigs going wild. They would be great for making unexpected charges to tie up the enemy for a turn (or maybe 2?). Whats everyones thoughts on these guys? I know niether unit is extremely competitive however I think they would be extremely fun to paint and model as well as throw in a few kicks ingame!

Hey I'm a big squig lover and use both units regularly in my NG horde. I think they're about as competitive as anything in the O&G book (which is to say not especially). These are my thoughts on them and your ideas.

I tried running big blocks of squigs without much success. Shooting, magic and flank charges kill them. Shooting cos it preferentially kills squigs (2/3 time though only 3/5th of unit is squig). And to win in combat you have to get the charge (animosity strikes!) in with the squigs - if the gobbos have to fight it is game over. Lack of banners and champions also makes it hard to get CR and deal with characters. I think they're best as a small unit (2-3 herds maybe) which the opponent has to divert a bit of attention to or get nibbled on. Charge them head on into the enemby kill a bit then let them go pop amongst the battle line - should be a value for money buy.

Hoppers I love - 360 'charge arc', ignore terrain; hide them in forest and create a dangerous circle around them. Or move some spider riders in front of them to screen them and stop them going too far. Then mash some stuff with them. Great for getting flank charges, targeting characters in units in a suicide mission. I normally use them in units of 6-7.

Basically if you run a goblin list, squigs characters and fanatics are what kills stuff.

Hoppers fill a huge hole in the O&G army list.

After 4 bolt throwers hoppers are my next special selection.

They have a 360 degree mvt!!!!!!!!
Ignore terrain!!!!!!!!
Jump over your own troops to get to the enemy
3d6 mvt
WS 4!!!!!!!
Skirmishers so harder to kill off with shooting.
ITP so the enemy needs to kill off all of them. 3 of them can still make a mess of single rank missile units.
almost every enemy flanking unit and will really swing combats when you get them into the flank of enemy units with

They are insanely good.

Herds.... I've tried them in parctice games and a couple of tourneys.
2 units of 20.

I took them with the idea of flank tarpits as noone would be dumb enough to go near them and as they are immune to psych they would not be tripping over my main battle line.
However I ended up finding they were much better launched flat out at the enemy main line, for the 2d6 range 'explosion'..
The enemy ends up trying to avoid the unit, and it throws his plans out.

I prefer the hoppers, they just add too much.

I think both units are invaluable to a goblin army because of the Immune to Psychology rule.

Making the army a little more reliable has to be a good thing.

But they still suffer from the ridiculous animosity rule, and as skirmishers hoppers don't get the +1 bonus for 'Waaagh' when it is called by the general as they are not ranked.
The hoppers and my spider riders always seem to roll a 1 for animosity on the turn I call a Waaagh, so not only do I sit in spot, but I take d6 st3 hits.

Great work GW!

Isn't a 1 on an Waaagh! D6 casualties, not hits?

Regardless, I haven't tried Squig Hoppers. Squig Herds, I've only tried in three-herd units. They're decent, but as mentioned above they seem to do more psychologically than in actual effect. They're the only effective combat unit Night Goblins can take (Trolls too unreliable without Skarsnik as your general, and even then usually) due to WS4, S5, and A2.

The problem being, this makes them tolerable. They can counter someone's fodder Core units, but - in a habit comparable to everything else in the O&G lists - can at best tie most other army's specialist troops. Great Swords will maul them. Longbeards will maul them. Chaos Warriors will maul them. Since you can't put a boss with them and they suffer from animosity, you can't even use them as flank runners as they both risk 1's and can only ever get +1 to their Waaagh! roll.

I have come to realise that if you are silly enough to not take a black orc general in an O&G army, you deserve to loose.

Skarsnik and azhag would be the only exceptions to that rule.

Squig herds and hoppers are great. They copliment gobllins really well. Both units are hard htting, tough and ITP.

Herds are best thrown at the enemy, they do a lot of damage and even if your opponent focuses on them they do a lot of damage when the NGs eventually die.

Hoppers are also great. make medium sized units and get them into combat with basic guys and they can oten kill enough to force a test.

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:I have come to realise that if you are silly enough to not take a black orc general in an O&G army, you deserve to loose.

Skarsnik and azhag would be the only exceptions to that rule.

I 'unno, I'd say Gorbad can be worth it in certain lists. Mostly because he gives you an 18" Ld 10 BSB bubble in a single 310pt slot (wherein a BSB alone is about 95 sans upgrades, and another 144 for an Orc Warboss on a Boar). Or, in other words, you save a slot and are only paying about 71pts for the wargear and special rules he has (pretty good for an ASF no-save weapon, 18" bubble, and allowing multiple Big 'Un units of any one type). He's not exactly a bargain or must-have, but he can be pretty decent (especially in 3K+ point games).

Problem for Gorbad is the as soon as he takes a wound his 18 inch 'bubble' is reduced to 6.

Most imortantly he is not a black orc, and will, without fail roll a 6 and move forward when you don't want him to or roll a 1 and sit around in his huge boar boy, point sink unit, to be charged in the next turn.

You buy a black orc general for reliability first. It gives you a unit that you can be sure will do what you want it to do. The reason why O&G are bottom tier and virtually unplayable in the current game is the unreliablity of animosity. Remove it (we've done so in house games) and they are suddenly very effective.
Look at skeven, their rules have inbuilt unreliability but it doesn't cripple your entire battle plan (potentially) every turn.
As a player who has had Skarsnik, a mage and a 60 strong unit of NGs with nets animosity for the first 4 turns of a game, it can become very depressing.

But back to the original topic.

I've seen 4 herds of 15 work well at 2000-2250 points. They were launched forwards and the enemy scattered before them, trying desperately to avoid combat. The rest of the army (NGs) followed up in a second wave to catch units that did break through.

Black Orc-led units still go forward on a 6. Only a 1 is nullified.

Which is 1 in 6 less chance of your grand plan ruined.

So, I've played a handful of games with a Night Goblin list...against daemons and dwarfs. So it was hard. But I've always drawn, so here's what I've got to say:

Herds and Hoppers are not very elite, but they are more so than the rest of your stuff (if your running just goblins) and they fulfill a different role (if you use a lot of orcs). I have seen both work quite well.

Hoppers are great when they can support your main battle line, charging into the flank of whatever charged your blocks and/or protecting your flank.

Herds are a dangerous gambit for a NG army, because a fanatic counts as a unit (and thus takes d6 S5 hits). So keep these fellas from your main battle line. You could run them with Wolf Riders or Spider Riders to try and get a charge, or you can set them up on your extreme flanks and push them 13" ahead of everyone else. But still, as you said, they have W4 S5 A2 each, and that's not bad. It's actually very, very sick.

I think the key is to try to present as many targets as possible. Your opponent shouldn't be able to deal with them all before some of them get through to deal some damage. My 2000 NG list has 12 units (not including fanatics) that can dish out S5+ attacks. Each unit is a viable threat, and while each unit is also a glass cannon (except maybe the Giant), there's 12 of them.

In reply to your question about Herds, I am almost positive that your enemy can only attack goblin herders if that given enemy model is in BTB with a herder. Otherwise, all casualties are squigs. And vise versa, I suppose, if you put all your squigs in back...

And finally, I've played around with this little guy with some phenomenal results: night goblin big boss + light armour + shield + Great Cave Squig + Wallopa's-One-Hit-Wunda + Trisky Trinket. For 124 points, you've got 3 S10 attacks and (2? 3?) S5 attacks and no ward saves allowed. Everything about him is a surprise. S10 (surprise!). No ward saves (surprise!). His random movement got him into combat in the first place (surprise!). He's taken down Heralds of Khorne on Juggers, a BSB Thane-o'-Pain, and chewed through a whole unit of Flesh Hounds on his own.

Shonkhor wrote:Hey I'm a big squig lover and use both units regularly in my NG horde. I think they're about as competitive as anything in the O&G book (which is to say not especially).

And Shonkhor wins the thread

I love squigs... they're just about the only/main thing that tempts me to start O&G!

SQUIG hoppers alll the way cost as much as a black orks they move 3d6 2 s5 attacks unit of ten twenty attacks plus the squigs equaling 5 s5 attacks per model 50 ATTACKS FOR ONLY 150pts.

The Squig Hoppers/riders attack as one... its not like normal calvary.

Unless Im misreading something >.>