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Hi guys,

This incident has come up in a few of our games recently, just wanted to see what others peoples' interpretations are:

If an enemy unit has some members inside difficult terrain but a couple outside of that terrain and you charge them, do you have to take a difficult terrain test on the charge move even if the closest model to you is not in the terrain?

The reason I ask is because you move closest to closest, so no terrain test, but then subsequant models who have to try and engage another unengaged enemy may have to go through the difficult terrain. So does that mean the whole unit needs to take a test or as long as the first model you charge is out in the open, no-one has to make the difficult terrain test?

Thanks

If you can (must) reach models in the terrain, then yes, you must test before moving the first model and the entire unit is limited to that as it's charge distance.

So in your example, say there are 2 models out of terrain and the rest inside the difficult terrain. Your charging unit has 5 models. The closest to closest is one of the models outside terrain, but all five of your models (or even just three of them) are within 6" assault range of models in terrain. You must test.

my advice is to simply move the models one at a time and explain what you are doing (and the reasons) while you're doing it. it saves you alot of later hassle when someone who doesn't know the rules very well thinks they've been cheated. telegraph EVERYTHING for both your and your opponent's benefit. "i'm moving the first model, closest to closest per the rules. the next model MUST end up in base to base with an unengaged model so i'm choosing to move him to this one, blocking access to the further ones in cover. Now, i'm moving this one who can't reach any of the models in cover so he'll get into base contact with an already engaged one." doing it step by step makes it relatively easy to see if you must make a test and prevents further problems.

Or of course, just use your regular move to finish so taht you can only reach the two models ouside of terrain so that you don't have to resort to any 'shenanigans'..........

Thanks guys

don_mondo wrote:"...So in your example, say there are 2 models out of terrain and the rest inside the difficult terrain. Your charging unit has 5 models. The closest to closest is one of the models outside terrain, but all five of your models (or even just three of them) are within 6" assault range of models in terrain. You must test..."

There's a small problem with that though: we do not pre-measure anything. A player may not know the actual distance between his assaulting models and the intended unit. He announces a charge - moves closest model to closest model ( outside of terrain ), then the second model to an unengaged model, then the next model... if the terrain feature turns out to be 6.25 inches away and the next model is 6.5 inches away then at this point no difficult terrain test is needed.

Personally - as this is something that does come up often, we've just house ruled it ( at three different venues I'm familiar with ) that before any assault moves are made that you premeasure the distances between assaulting models and the intended enemy unit.

No, you announce a charge and *then* you measure - otherwise you dont move anything.

this means you can now start measuring every other move. As soon as you discover you MUST move through terrain, which IS before you move anything, you then take a DT test.

Once you've declared the charge, you start measuring. You do measure to see which model is closest before moving anything, right? And you do measure to make sure you're in assault range, right? So now you add one more measurement, to see if you need to make a DT test. At that point, you can tell whether or not you need to make a difficult terrain test before moving the closest model. No pre-measuement involved.

don_mondo wrote:Once you've declared the charge, you start measuring. You do measure to see which model is closest before moving anything, right? And you do measure to make sure you're in assault range, right? So now you add one more measurement, to see if you need to make a DT test. At that point, you can tell whether or not you need to make a difficult terrain test before moving the closest model. No pre-measuement involved.

That works really well except that models cannot move through other models. It is possible that there will be some unforeseen problem in the assault move where there is no longer an open path for later models to move except by going through difficult terrain. How does your solution handle this?

How can there be ANYTHING unforseen when moving models? Does terrain suddenly jump in the way?

Perhaps instead of postulating issues a concrete example may be more useful?

See the part about measuring and being able to tell if you're going to have to move through difficult terrain? yeah, that's how it handles it. If you lack the ability to determine spatial relationships on a one-dimensional (or is it two?) level and are unable to tell whether or not you'll have to test, well, sorry, I can't help you with that.

Since you are moving in a straight line on a plane it is 1 dimensional

Way I have played it is you declare the assault, if it so happens that you must go through terrain we make a roll and if that was too short for the first model to have made it in (usually it is pretty obvious) we put the models back in place and they all have a pity party.

nosferatu1001 wrote:How can there be ANYTHING unforseen when moving models? Does terrain suddenly jump in the way?

Perhaps instead of postulating issues a concrete example may be more useful?

Terrain does suddenly jump in the way. Models count as impassible terrain.

Here is an extremely simplified example:

E E||||
|||



F F F

E is an enemy model, F is a friendly model, and | is terrain.

The left F has to move first, as per the assault rules. Next, the player can legally choose to move the second or third model. If he moves the second model in between the two enemies, great. Nobody has to move through terrain. However, if he moves it in front of the enemy model on the right, which is a perfectly legal assault move, will the third friendly model still be in assault range without moving through the terrain?

Now, in this example, no model would ever be required to move through difficult terrain, so let's say the player decides not to make a difficult terrain test. What would then happen if he were to move as described above, blocking the third model so that it has to move through difficult terrain?

Now imagine doing this with 10+ models. It is not as simple as you would like to think.

don_mondo wrote:See the part about measuring and being able to tell if you're going to have to move through difficult terrain? yeah, that's how it handles it. If you lack the ability to determine spatial relationships on a one-dimensional (or is it two?) level and are unable to tell whether or not you'll have to test, well, sorry, I can't help you with that.

This situation is 4-dimensional. I really have no idea why you think moving in three physical directions (as in some cases, there are multiple levels) over a period of time is one dimension.

Measuring does not handle it, as temporary walls can form, blocking the path that was supposedly required.

And the player moving the models has entire controls over how the mdoels move, so it really isnt "unforseen" - it is ENTIRELY forseeable!

Unless you move your models without thinking at all about doing so?


Your claim that it is "unforseeable" is not really supportable.

(and in your diagram the first "F" has to move through terrain, as it must move the shortest distance - straight through terrain. I'd suggest the "Code" tags)

nosferatu1001 wrote:And the player moving the models has entire controls over how the mdoels move, so it really isnt "unforseen" - it is ENTIRELY forseeable!

Unless you move your models without thinking at all about doing so?


Your claim that it is "unforseeable" is not really supportable.

(and in your diagram the first "F" has to move through terrain, as it must move the shortest distance - straight through terrain. I'd suggest the "Code" tags)

Sometimes I'm astonished that there are still discussions about things like this. Nos, you have it right, the rules are very clear.

The only model that the Assaulting rules explicitly states must make a DT/DT Check is the first one, however, in the case of Difficult Terrain, it applies to the unit, so if you have to move into Difficult Terrain and you roll too low, you can't assault and no model is moved:

"All of the models in an assaulting unit make their
assault move following the same rules as in the
Movement phase, with the exception that they may be
moved within 1" of enemy models."

The sequence goes like this:

1) If the first closest model moving to the closest enemy model by the straightest possible routdoes not have to make a DT test,
2) then you continue to move models until all assaulting models are in base to base contact with assaulted models,
3) when you can no longer get assaulting models into base to base contact with assaulted models,
4) then you have to move subsequent assaulting models into base to base contact with other assaulting models,
5) if you cant do that then you at least have to maintain coherency; once you have moved all of the assaulting models, the assaulted models make their reaction move except that defender's reaction does not trigger DT tests.

P 34 Rules

Since all models must maintain the normal movement rules, if a model moves into dangerous terrain to follow the second or third step of the sequence, then that model would abide by the Dangerous Terrain rules:

DANGEROUS TERRAIN
As mentioned previously, some terrain features will be
dangerous to move through. This is represented by the
dangerous terrain test. Roll a D6 for every model that
has entered, left or moved through one or more areas
of dangerous terrain during its move. On the roll of a
1, the model suffers a wound, with no armour or cover
saves allowed (wounds and saves are explained in the
next section).

Automatically Appended Next Post:
For further clarification:

ASSAULTING THROUGH COVER
If, following the rules for moving assaulting models (see
page 34), any model in an assaulting unit will have to
go through difficult or dangerous terrain as part of its
assault move, the unit must take the relevant terrain
test before moving. This has two disadvantages. The
first and most obvious is that such tests might cause
the assault to fail altogether if the closest model cannot
make it into contact with the enemy. Note that if a
model stopped 1" away from the enemy in the
Movement or Shooting phase, it can Assault even if its
unit rolls a double 1 on its difficult terrain test.

Try to combine these two rules found on page 14 and 34.

Page 34:


"All of the models in an assaulting unit make their
assault move following the same rules as in the
Movement phase, with the exception that they may be
moved within 1" of enemy models."



Page 14:


"If a unit starts its move outside difficult terrain, the player
must declare if he wants his unit to try to enter difficult
terrain as part of their move. If he chooses not to, the unit
moves as normal but may not enter difficult terrain. If he chooses
that they will do so, the unit must take a difficult terrain test as
described above."

So before starting to move OR measure anything you have to declare if your unit
tries to enter difficult terrain or not (assuming that your unit is in the open).
If you opt for difficult terrain, you throw 2d6 and start moving each model
following the rules for moving assaulting models. Even if none of your assaulting
models even reaches difficult terrain, they still move a maximum of that 2d6 inches.


If you choose to assault the models in the open, perhaps not wanting
to risk the whole assault ending up too short, you simply can't move your
assaulting models inside difficult terrain.

In other words it can happen that you just can't move some of your
assaulting models into base to base contact with your enemy because you
have chosen to move in the open and difficult terrain blocks you path. Then
you have to settle for the enemy models in the open. But of course defen-
ders' reaction will get many of your models into B2B contact so I'd probably
decide to move the assaulting models in the open in these kinds of
sittuations.

Necro thread is necro....

nosferatu1001 wrote:Necro thread is necro....

He's posted a new argument, so there's no reason not to address his points in this thread (its not like the rules have changed since when the thread was started).

Waaghdakka wrote:Try to combine these two rules found on page 14 and 34.

Page 34:


"All of the models in an assaulting unit make their
assault move following the same rules as in the
Movement phase, with the exception that they may be
moved within 1" of enemy models."



Page 14:


"If a unit starts its move outside difficult terrain, the player
must declare if he wants his unit to try to enter difficult
terrain as part of their move. If he chooses not to, the unit
moves as normal but may not enter difficult terrain. If he chooses
that they will do so, the unit must take a difficult terrain test as
described above."

So before starting to move OR measure anything you have to declare if your unit
tries to enter difficult terrain or not (assuming that your unit is in the open).
If you opt for difficult terrain, you throw 2d6 and start moving each model
following the rules for moving assaulting models. Even if none of your assaulting
models even reaches difficult terrain, they still move a maximum of that 2d6 inches.


If you choose to assault the models in the open, perhaps not wanting
to risk the whole assault ending up too short, you simply can't move your
assaulting models inside difficult terrain.

In other words it can happen that you just can't move some of your
assaulting models into base to base contact with your enemy because you
have chosen to move in the open and difficult terrain blocks you path. Then
you have to settle for the enemy models in the open. But of course defen-
ders' reaction will get many of your models into B2B contact so I'd probably
decide to move the assaulting models in the open in these kinds of
sittuations.

You've taken two rules out of context to try to support your position, but the problem is you've ignored the rules in the assault phase that TELL you how to handle a unit assaulting into cover and those rules are more specific then the movement phase rules that allow a unit to *choose* whether to enter difficult terrain or not.

Again:

If, following the rules for moving assaulting models (see page 34), any model in an assaulting unit will have to go through difficult or dangerous terrain as part of its assault move, the unit must take the relevant terrain test before moving.

The rules for moving assaulting models FORCES them to move into base contact with enemy models in the unit they are assaulting that don't already have a model in base contact with them, so you have no choice. You must move models a certain way to follow these specific rules and if that movement will take the unit into difficult terrain then you MUST take the test before moving the unit.

Bingo.

Except this wasnt a new argument - it appeared much earlier, in fact everytime this question is raised someone tries to claim that you cant take a difficult terrain test unless you declared one before you moved.