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I've been fielding a Manticore recently, and as I was curb-stomping a Land Raider 1st turn, and my opponent said something about how the blasts are resolved, and did a few searches.

What he said was that if you fire it as Barrage it fires, and you resolve the blasts as shown with the Multiple Barrage description in page 32 of the BRB. However, that says that only applies if you are firing more than one weapon, while Storm Eagle Rockets are obviously only one weapon.

So is it just resolved as D3 separate blasts on the target? Or as a multiple barrage, even when firing with LOS, as the only thing that changes when you're not firing out of LOS is the scatter decrease?

Gavo wrote:I've been fielding a Manticore recently, and as I was curb-stomping a Land Raider 1st turn, and my opponent said something about how the blasts are resolved, and did a few searches.

What he said was that if you fire it as Barrage it fires, and you resolve the blasts as shown with the Multiple Barrage description in page 32 of the BRB. However, that says that only applies if you are firing more than one weapon, while Storm Eagle Rockets are obviously only one weapon.

So is it just resolved as D3 separate blasts on the target? Or as a multiple barrage, even when firing with LOS, as the only thing that changes when you're not firing out of LOS is the scatter decrease?

RaW it's D3 Seperate Blasts

How people play it is up to them.

Gavo wrote:However, that says that only applies if you are firing more than one weapon, while Storm Eagle Rockets are obviously only one weapon.

That's the core of the issue.

When the Multiple Barrage rules were written, there were no Barrage weapons that fired multiple shots. So the rules (rather short-sightedly, as it appears) were written to cover units with more than one Barrage.

The Eldar FAQ ruled that the Reaper Exarch's multiple shots should be treated as a Multiple Barrage. I would take that as a sufficient precedent for any other similar situation, since the Eldar Codex was the first time this actually became an issue.

That should be discussed with an opponent before the game, though, as the rules as written would indeed lead more towards treating them as separate blasts.

I just always fire it directly and do D3 blasts in a row.

SlaveToDorkness wrote:I just always fire it directly and do D3 blasts in a row.

For that, then, will the blasts still be counted as barrage (hitting side armor) or hitting whatever it's facing

Gavo wrote:

SlaveToDorkness wrote:I just always fire it directly and do D3 blasts in a row.

For that, then, will the blasts still be counted as barrage (hitting side armor) or hitting whatever it's facing

They hit whatever it is facing.

Gavo wrote:

SlaveToDorkness wrote:I just always fire it directly and do D3 blasts in a row.

For that, then, will the blasts still be counted as barrage (hitting side armor) or hitting whatever it's facing

Where does it say barrage weapons hit side armor?

MekanobSamael wrote:

Gavo wrote:

SlaveToDorkness wrote:I just always fire it directly and do D3 blasts in a row.

For that, then, will the blasts still be counted as barrage (hitting side armor) or hitting whatever it's facing

Where does it say barrage weapons hit side armor?

Page 60

Gwar! wrote:

Gavo wrote:

SlaveToDorkness wrote:I just always fire it directly and do D3 blasts in a row.

For that, then, will the blasts still be counted as barrage (hitting side armor) or hitting whatever it's facing

They hit whatever it is facing.

Then can you still fire it with LOS and count it as barrage?

Gavo wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Gavo wrote:

SlaveToDorkness wrote:I just always fire it directly and do D3 blasts in a row.

For that, then, will the blasts still be counted as barrage (hitting side armor) or hitting whatever it's facing

They hit whatever it is facing.

Then can you still fire it with LOS and count it as barrage?

Yes.

Gwar! wrote:

Gavo wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Gavo wrote:

SlaveToDorkness wrote:I just always fire it directly and do D3 blasts in a row.

For that, then, will the blasts still be counted as barrage (hitting side armor) or hitting whatever it's facing

They hit whatever it is facing.

Then can you still fire it with LOS and count it as barrage?

Yes.

You would then still subtract the BS from scatter, no?

Gavo wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Gavo wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Gavo wrote:

SlaveToDorkness wrote:I just always fire it directly and do D3 blasts in a row.

For that, then, will the blasts still be counted as barrage (hitting side armor) or hitting whatever it's facing

They hit whatever it is facing.

Then can you still fire it with LOS and count it as barrage?

Yes.

You would then still subtract the BS from scatter, no?

Yes, you use the rules for Blast Weapons.

Gwar! wrote:

Gavo wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Gavo wrote:

SlaveToDorkness wrote:I just always fire it directly and do D3 blasts in a row.

For that, then, will the blasts still be counted as barrage (hitting side armor) or hitting whatever it's facing

They hit whatever it is facing.

Then can you still fire it with LOS and count it as barrage?

Yes.

No.

PG 58, Rt column, 2nd para:

If fired directly at the target, they are treated exactly like normal ordnance weapons...

SlaveToDorkness wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Gavo wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Gavo wrote:

SlaveToDorkness wrote:I just always fire it directly and do D3 blasts in a row.

For that, then, will the blasts still be counted as barrage (hitting side armor) or hitting whatever it's facing

They hit whatever it is facing.

Then can you still fire it with LOS and count it as barrage?

Yes.

No.

PG 58, Rt column, 2nd para:

If fired directly at the target, they are treated exactly like normal ordnance weapons...

Except you are not firing it Directly, you are firing it as Barrage. If you have LoS AND Firing at Barrage, you get to Subtract BS and Benefit from the Barrage Rules.

Whoa. Totally missed that. Reading is for fools. Thanks.

Gwar! wrote:

SlaveToDorkness wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Gavo wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Gavo wrote:

SlaveToDorkness wrote:I just always fire it directly and do D3 blasts in a row.

For that, then, will the blasts still be counted as barrage (hitting side armor) or hitting whatever it's facing

They hit whatever it is facing.

Then can you still fire it with LOS and count it as barrage?

Yes.

No.

PG 58, Rt column, 2nd para:

If fired directly at the target, they are treated exactly like normal ordnance weapons...

Except you are not firing it Directly, you are firing it as Barrage. If you have LoS AND Firing at Barrage, you get to Subtract BS and Benefit from the Barrage Rules.

Except we are talking about an Ordnance Barrage weapon. The Ordnance Barrage rules on pg 58 state that it is one or the other. Either it is fired directly as a normal Ordnance weapon, or indirectly as a barrage.

SlaveToDorkness wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

SlaveToDorkness wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Gavo wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Gavo wrote:

SlaveToDorkness wrote:I just always fire it directly and do D3 blasts in a row.

For that, then, will the blasts still be counted as barrage (hitting side armor) or hitting whatever it's facing

They hit whatever it is facing.

Then can you still fire it with LOS and count it as barrage?

Yes.

No.

PG 58, Rt column, 2nd para:

If fired directly at the target, they are treated exactly like normal ordnance weapons...

Except you are not firing it Directly, you are firing it as Barrage. If you have LoS AND Firing at Barrage, you get to Subtract BS and Benefit from the Barrage Rules.

Except we are talking about an Ordnance Barrage weapon. The Ordnance Barrage rules on pg 58 state that it is one or the other. Either it is fired directly as a normal Ordnance weapon, or indirectly as a barrage.

Nowhere does it say that Barrage or Ordnance Barrage weapons do not subtract BS. On both page 58 and page 32 it says that you do not subtract BS if you fire at a target you cannot see.

Yes, but you do not gain the benefit of hitting side armor with Ordnance Barrage weapons whilst firing directly.

SlaveToDorkness wrote:Yes, but you do not gain the benefit of hitting side armor with Ordnance Barrage weapons whilst firing directly.

This is correct. But if you have LOS, and are beyond the minimum range, why are you firing it directly? You still subtract BS from barrage fire if you have LOS. If you roll hits on the scatter die for template 2&3, you can lay them over the tank as well, as "hit" results can overlap any of the templates.

Because I have 3 chances to hit the vehicle instead of hoping for double hits?

Valhallan42nd wrote:

SlaveToDorkness wrote:Yes, but you do not gain the benefit of hitting side armor with Ordnance Barrage weapons whilst firing directly.

This is correct. But if you have LOS, and are beyond the minimum range, why are you firing it directly? You still subtract BS from barrage fire if you have LOS. If you roll hits on the scatter die for template 2&3, you can lay them over the tank as well, as "hit" results can overlap any of the templates.

On the other hand, if you roll 3 shots and you are firing indirectly and the first one scatters completely off you've just wasted 3 shots, whereas if you fire them sequentially at least 1 of them should hit.

Plus, if you roll a scatter on a 2nd or 3rd barrage it can flip completely off the target even if you hit in the first place, whereas firing directly you can still hit the target even if you scatter.

i'm not sure what the stats are on this, but I tend to fire direct when cover saves aren't an issue. But against a weaker side armor, yeah, doing barrage is probably better (but 90% of the time my target will have equal side armor and front.)

SlaveToDorkness wrote:Because I have 3 chances to hit the vehicle instead of hoping for double hits?

If you play the rules as they are written the Manticore only has a single barrage weapon so they don't follow the rules for multiple barrage weapons as the others have already stated. Whether firing directly or indirectly they are resolved in the exact same way except for with regards to cover and armor facings.