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Which takes precedence or do they cancel each other out.

Thanks!

Example. I was thinking of putting my dark elf master with a great weapon (strikes last), with my black guard that have the banner of hag greaf.. which gives the unit the always strikes first ability....

Cant find in the rulebook what happens in this situation.

I would think he still strikes first. Since the always strikes first rule says Models with this special rule always strike first in CC, even if the other unit has charged.

However the rule for Strikes last says "they will always strike last in close combat"....

Always strikes first overrides Great weapons' always strikes last, as does charging.

ASF overrides SL, and ASF vs ASF reverts to initiative -it always ignores SL and jumos straight to initiative.

Is that stated anywhere, or is it just common knowledge? Or am i just reading the rules wrong

Its stated directly in the rules for Always Strikes First

Yeah it does, but i guess where i got confused was because of the great weapons section also.

Great weapons always strike last.

Always strikes first units will, always strike first.

Exactly the same wording for both rules pretty much.

Great weapons "strike last"

NOT "always strike last"

Very different

nosferatu1001 wrote:Great weapons "strike last"

NOT "always strike last"

Very different

ahhh good point.

Its relevant as there are at least two items i know of (amber pendant for wood elves, i believe, and Chakax) that make opponents "always strike last" - meanin ghtey DO lose ASF and go last, even if they charge.

As stated by the many above me, ASF overrides all other factors (minus those special magic items that remove ASF).

For the rule, look no further than the High Elf FAQ
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1540038_WH_HighElves_Oct_2008.pdf

Q. When two models with the always strikes first (ASF) rule are in combat, and one is equipped with a great weapon, does the model equipped with the great weapon strike last? For example, if a High Elf model with an Initiative value of 6 and equipped with a Great Weapon is fighting against an enemy model with the ASF rule, an Initiative of 4, and a hand weapon, who strikes first in the combat?

A. When two models with the ASF rule are fighting, they will strike in descending Initiative order, rolling a dice in case of same Initiative. All other factors, such as charging, great weapons, etc., are ignored, because they have already been bypassed by the ASF rule.

This of course echoes the rulebook, which already tells you how to resolve ASF vs ASF

the reason the answer is still in there is because, for about 5 days, they ruled something entirely differently - that GW etc *did* have an effect.

I never agreed with the ruling in that FAQ, even though it is the official ruling. I always understood it as follows: I have ASF, you have ASF so we go to initiative order. But, my great weapon says that I strike last when we strike in initiative order, so I strike after your ASF model (but before anything else that might not be ASF). That's how the original FAQ was, then they changed it to what Lehnsherr posted.

Sorry for the rant, been a pet peeve of mine (I have a High Elf playing buddy, neither of us like the ruling)

Except the rulebook has already ruled on this, and states you move to comparing initiative.

NOT the same thing as initive order. Which is why the FAQ was pulled - it ruled the oppostie way to the rules in the rulebook.

I share your sentiments, Grobbicull. Here's the way I think the Workshop would have us look at it:

ASF overrides charging, great weapons, etc, so that when two models with ASF meet in BtB, they still ignore all of those other factors, and go to the only thing left to decide: Initiative. I think it's basically saying that if you're fast enough to cut somebody even if they're charging at you on horseback or if you have a claymore, then the fact that he is also that fast shouldn't suddenly mean that those previously negligible factors suddenly matter. GW's attempt to make the rule more intuitive, I guess. Just not for me.

Sure seems like it would be simpler to me if:

If neither unit has ASF: Follow normal rules
If 1 unit has ASF: Use ASF
If both units have ASF: Revert to normal rules. Seriously.. how hard is that?

That way there's still a bonus to charging.

If you're both fast enough to have ASF, then someone has to be faster.

Manfred von Drakken wrote:If you're both fast enough to have ASF, then someone has to be faster.

There can be only one!!!

what about clones?

ChocolateGork wrote:what about clones?

Dice off.