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I often see people saying that heavy bolters are useless

I'll face it, they are.

3 S5 shots?

they barely do anything, and heavy bolters are often shied away.

I'd really like to see some heavy bolters being much to a standard.

Suggestion:

Scout marine H. bolters are AWESOME. being able to wound anything on a 2+, it's even large blast!
but theres a problem:

scouts are supposed to be either wrapping up some assaults, sniping at some lovely carnis or holding position for more powerful troops (tacs.)

So, I suggest removing it, and giving tactical marines the choice to take them as in:

Tac marine may exchange bolter for a:
H. bolter (norm.) free.
H. bolter W/ hellfire heavy rounds. 15 pts

Hell Fire Rounds for a Scout Heavy Bolter are not a large blast, just a blast.

Of the three purposes you listed for scouts, the modified Heavy Bolter works just fine for two of them.

What does this change actually accomplish? It makes the Heavy Bolter better against clumped up infantry but worse against spread out infrantry. Against Tyranids and IG you already wound on a two. Against big things, like Carnifexen and Nobs, why not just use a Krak Missle?

This kinda seems like a change for the sake of change.

thats it - I don't want to be using a missile launcher!!

I really like heavy bolters, literally, they are the embodyment of a 50 .cal HMG used by heavy support, even if it is the only one that gets 3 shots.

I agree that, fluff wise the HB shoudl fire out more shots (although maybe not at a higher S or lower AP). but if you go down that route then you also have increase the number of shots for autocannons and assautl cannons as well. then it starts gettign silly.

I'm not even really sure what Captain Solon is saying here... Does he just want to pump up Heavy Bolters? I don't really see a purpose in that other than to just get a better free weapon... However, I don't know why Space Marines can't take Autocannons anymore.

The problem is that their costs don't justify. Maybe if Devastator Squads had the cost model that long fangs do, they would be useful. After all, a 115 point squad with 5 heavy bolters can recoup its cost even if it shoots at nothing but Ork Boyz the entire game. The problem with them in DS is that they don't justify their cost.

For Tac Squads, though? Honestly? You're trading one round of bolter fire before the assault for having a significantly stronger firebase at longer range. They're perfectly costed the way they are.

Now, in terms of fluff, I agree that they lack something. My gaming group has tried extensively to mod this to make them better fit their idealized role on the battlefield, but were never able to balance them.

Here are some of the ideas we tested out, feel free to try them in your group:

For 10 points, the HB is Heavy 5, reduced by one for every 12" away from the enemy unit you are, with total range 60". This makes it real scary at close range, but like most machine guns, it's not accurate enough for long-range engagement.

For 10 Points, it can also fire 2 shots moving at 12" range, just like a rapid fire weapon.

For 5 points, Range 36", S4, AP4, heavy 4.

At base cost, adding the pinning rule.

If any of those appeals to you, try them out in your group. Hope you find one that better fits the image of the heavy machine gun.

I really don't see a need for Heavy Bolters to change. Everyone is assuming that someone with a Heavy Bolter, or indeed any other heavy machine gun, will spray rounds across the whole battlefield. Instead, the Heavy 3 represents the user firing in short bursts of rounds which are more useful than simply hosing the enemy and wasting your ammo in the process.

Valk

Actually heavy machine guns ARE used to hose the battle field and to pin the enemy. That is why they have the heavy 3 as some of the rounds will be used to pin the enemy and the rest actually used to spray the enemy.

kingtorres4 wrote:Actually heavy machine guns ARE used to hose the battle field and to pin the enemy. That is why they have the heavy 3 as some of the rounds will be used to pin the enemy and the rest actually used to spray the enemy.

Yes, but even an idiot wouldn't waste their ammo on full-auto, which is why they're only Heavy 3 to represent this.

Also, if every weapon was changed to fully represent their fire-rate, Boltguns would have many more shots, and Assault Cannons would be insane.

Valk

I agree with the train of thought that this reeks of change for the sake of change.

I personally find HB's to be just fine as they are, and fill an anti-infantry roll in most armies well. HB's are one of those weapons that has changed very little over time and is still a trusty old workhorse that one can rely on to get its job done.

My 2 cents is that anyone who says that they are worthless, espically when mounted on a BS4 T4 3+ SV model needs to try harder.

So to sum it up...

No change.

Seem fine the way they are, though maybe give the wielder the option to fire on the move with BS3 or something?

jp400 wrote:I agree with the train of thought that this reeks of change for the sake of change.

There's nothing inherently wrong with that. It's just a game... changing things just because you want to is perfectly acceptable.

HB's are one of those weapons that has changed very little over time

...other than losing the ability for anyone other than Scouts to take Hellfire rounds...


This is another of those suggestions that isn't so much changing things as bringing back something that went away a long time ago. I for one would be all for adding the Hellfire option back in.

Valkyrie wrote:

kingtorres4 wrote:Actually heavy machine guns ARE used to hose the battle field and to pin the enemy. That is why they have the heavy 3 as some of the rounds will be used to pin the enemy and the rest actually used to spray the enemy.

Yes, but even an idiot wouldn't waste their ammo on full-auto, which is why they're only Heavy 3 to represent this.

Also, if every weapon was changed to fully represent their fire-rate, Boltguns would have many more shots, and Assault Cannons would be insane.

Valk

For fluffs sake, Heavy 3 don't mean the gun goes bang, bang, bang it's a representation of a tactical marine just unloading full auto spraying the area. Same with everything, rapid fire only firing two shots... just a representation.

Yes Heavy Bolters are not the greatest but worthless I don't think so. Long fangs with 5 heavy bolters or even dev with 4 can put alot of shots down range and force some armour saves on just about any unit. While a krak rocket has a better chance to put 1 wound on something a heavy bolter has a chance to put 3.


Solon you are doing alot of "bitching" about marines as of late. Is it possible that maybe you are playing an army that doesn't actually suit you?

If you want go "old Skool". 2nd ed old school...... Heavy Bolters rolled 3 (effectively) d3 for "Hits", giving a potential for 9 hits from a single HB, or 36(max) for a unit with 4.
Finding the old dice may be difficult. They had 2-1s, 2-2s, 1-3, and a Jam indicator, which meant no shots if one came up and weapon destroyed if 2 or more came up. (IIRC)
Fielding 2 HB units gave the potential to mow infantry heavy armies off the table. (72 potential hits)

helgrenze wrote:If you want go "old Skool". 2nd ed old school...... Heavy Bolters rolled 3 (effectively) d3 for "Hits", giving a potential for 9 hits from a single HB, or 36(max) for a unit with 4.

Heavy Bolters only used 2 sustained fire dice, and didn't blow up. The Assault Cannon used 3, and blew up if you rolled 3 jams. Otherwise, jams took a further shooting phase per jam rolled to clear.

insaniak wrote:

helgrenze wrote:If you want go "old Skool". 2nd ed old school...... Heavy Bolters rolled 3 (effectively) d3 for "Hits", giving a potential for 9 hits from a single HB, or 36(max) for a unit with 4.

Heavy Bolters only used 2 sustained fire dice, and didn't blow up. The Assault Cannon used 3, and blew up if you rolled 3 jams. Otherwise, jams took a further shooting phase per jam rolled to clear.

My bad... its been some time since 2nd ed...... though some armies of the time could field up to 15 HBs.....

insaniak wrote:

HB's are one of those weapons that has changed very little over time

...other than losing the ability for anyone other than Scouts to take Hellfire rounds...


This is another of those suggestions that isn't so much changing things as bringing back something that went away a long time ago. I for one would be all for adding the Hellfire option back in.

Didn't they explain the Hellfire rounds being restricted to Scouts as a balancing act at some point, or something of that nature? I vaguely recall them mentioning it being because of the relatively limited Heavy Weapons a Scout squad can take in comparison to Tactical, Sternguard, etc squads.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Come to think of it:
The only squad that had Hellfire Rounds last edition were Tyrannic War Veterans, along with the Deathwatch Kill-Teams.

@Captin Solon: What you're seeing isn't that Heavy Bolters aren't any good at their role. It's that Tac squads trade a bit of their strength when burdened with Heavy Weapons of any sort.

You see that an entire squad of super soldiers give up their ability to move for their whole turn so that one or two guys can go 'pop-pop-pop' at 36" and the results of this is that one your luckiest day six models go down. You're misusing the HB's, keep your Tac squads moving and shooting then on the turn before they get assaulted, or if they find themselves hanging around in one place for that extra shot then open up with the HB. You're only trading one bolter shot a turn for something that if done right presents an opportunity to be used in every game.

One HB in a SM squad, meh. Four or five (12 and 15 S5 shots) in a DEV/Long fang squad shooting up a DP full of SM is pretty good. However giving up the Heavy slot is kinda hard to do in most cases in this mech oriented 5th edition.

I used to play IG in 2nd edition. I used to spam HBs. With the old "over watch" option, it was devastating.

insaniak wrote:There's nothing inherently wrong with that. It's just a game... changing things just because you want to is perfectly acceptable.

I follow the train of thought... If it ain't broke, don't fix it... not Fix it till it's broke.

insaniak wrote:...other than losing the ability for anyone other than Scouts to take Hellfire rounds...

Hence the very little.

After looking through the Space Marine codices:
Tactical Squads have never been able to take Hellfire Rounds for their Heavy Bolters.

Yeah,i dotn find that very fair.Hell fire rounds in a heavy bolter.No.

Kanluwen wrote:After looking through the Space Marine codices:
Tactical Squads have never been able to take Hellfire Rounds for their Heavy Bolters.

Have a look in the 2nd edition Wargear book.

It wasn't in the codex. The ability to fire a single Hellfire round was one of the generic rules for Heavy Bolters in 2nd edition.

I don't have the 2nd edition Wargear book and haven't ever seen it, Insaniak.

But I'm referring to the more recent Codices. So far, the only units I've seen that could take Hellfire Rounds have been Deathwatch Kill-Teams(which were an Index Astartes add-on and never in the Codex), Tyrannic War Veteran Squads(which were Ultramarines only), and now the Scouts.

I don't really understand why Heavy Bolters need to be made better exclusively for Tactical or Devastator squads.
They're able to get more weapon options than Scouts, and it makes a bit more sense(fluff and ruleswise) for Scouts to be able to get a higher power round rather than a whole slew of heavy/special weapons.

I mean, which would be easier to carry: alternate rounds for a single heavy weapon or a bulky power pack for a Lascannon, Plasma Cannon, or the fuel tanks for a Multi-Melta etc?

Why not make Space Marine Heavy Bolters Assault rather than Heavy?

I always figured them for squad automatic weapons rather than heavy machine guns, at least where Space Marines are concerned. Leave them as Heavy for the Imperial Guard.

Kanluwen wrote:But I'm referring to the more recent Codices.

I wasn't. I was referring to the fact that, once upon a time, all Heavy Bolters had Hellfire as an option. Not sure why you're arguing the point if you haven't actually looked at the rules I'm referring to.


And no, I'm not saying that they should have it back just because they had it once upon a time. Just that I see it as being in keeping with the older background and rules, and a fitting inclusion as a house rule.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

jp400 wrote:I follow the train of thought... If it ain't broke, don't fix it... not Fix it till it's broke.

And if that's the way you want to play, that's just fine. For others, altering the rules to suit themselves is a big part of wargaming. The Proposed Rules forum isn't intended specifically for people to try to 'fix' the rules of 40K.

Fair enough, Insaniak. Fair enough.

helgrenze wrote:My bad... its been some time since 2nd ed...... though some armies of the time could field up to 15 HBs.....

It's also worth remembering it was a lot harded in 2nd ed to get a hit in the first place. On a board with decent terrain you were hitting on a 5 or 6 most of the time. The heavy bolter may have put out more shots, but it hit way less than it does now.

I think 3rd ed was a poor game for a lot of reasons, but I remember in those first few games how strange it felt to see troops with guns doing most of the killing, instead of characters in melee.

My thought is that the HBs should be able to fire hellfires, but they should be a devastator option.