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Hi all

Does Eldrad Ulthran get attack bonuses from having 2 CC weapons.
How to use his staff - as Witchblade or ordinary Power Weapon and how it's working against tanks ?

Spellscape wrote:Hi all

Does Eldrad Ulthran get attack bonuses from having 2 CC weapons.
How to use his staff - as Witchblade or ordinary Power Weapon?

No, he doesn't. He has a Witchblade and the Staff, so he must choose between them, thus denying him the bonus attack for 2 CCW.

But he has Pistol. So in general he has 3 CCW. Can I clame +1 A for using Pistol + Blade?

Spellscape wrote:But he has Pistol. So in general he has 3 CCW. Can I clame +1 A for using Pistol + Blade?

No, you cannot, because you have to choose which special weapon to use.

Because you chose, he cannot ever claim the Bonus attack, as per page 42 of the BRB.

Thank you VERY MUCH

Note that this is hotly debated. While Gwar's argument has merit, you should do a search to expose yourself to the competing point of view as well.

Spellscape wrote:Hi all

Does Eldrad Ulthran get attack bonuses from having 2 CC weapons.

Yes, he does. Fighting with either staff and sword or pistol is covered under "fighting with one special and one normal weapon". He gets the bonus attack.

Now, if you decide, for whatever reason, to use the staff and the sword together, you have to choose one effect and you get no bonus attack. But that would be kind of dumb.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Spellscape wrote:Hi all

Does Eldrad Ulthran get attack bonuses from having 2 CC weapons.

Yes, he does. Fighting with either staff and sword or pistol is covered under "fighting with one special and one normal weapon". He gets the bonus attack.

Now, if you decide, for whatever reason, to use the staff and the sword together, you have to choose one effect and you get no bonus attack. But that would be kind of dumb.

That is not actually what the rules say. They say, and I quote:

Two different special weapons
When it is their turn to attack, these models must choose which weapon to use that turn, but they never get the bonus attack for using two weapons (such is the penalty for wielding too many complex weapons!).

So, did Eldrad choose which special weapon to use? Yes, he did, so he can never get the bonus attack for using two weapons, even if he chooses to use one special weapon and his pistol, because he chose to use one of two special weapons.

IMO, Gwar is spot on with this one. Never means just that, never.

The section of the rules that says "never get the bonus attack for using two weapons" simply doesn't apply to Eldrad it only applies to models armed with exactly 2 singlehanded CCWs. So yes Eldrad gets his bonus attack as he has 3 weapons.

FlingitNow wrote:The section of the rules that says "never get the bonus attack for using two weapons" simply doesn't apply to Eldrad it only applies to models armed with exactly 2 singlehanded CCWs. So yes Eldrad gets his bonus attack as he has 3 weapons.

If you want to play that game, the rules don't cover models with 3CCW. Therefore, you are claiming that Eldrad cannot ever attack in CC.

And they call me TFG.

FlingitNow wrote:The section of the rules that says "never get the bonus attack for using two weapons" simply doesn't apply to Eldrad it only applies to models armed with exactly 2 singlehanded CCWs. So yes Eldrad gets his bonus attack as he has 3 weapons.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by ''exactly 2...'', but Eldrad has 2 different special weapons. Anything more than that doesn't matter, as the criteria for fighting with "two different special weapons" has been met, thus meaning he does not get any bonus attacks. The pistol never factors into the equation, because the rules for fighting with two different special weapons are very clear, and having 3 [or 4, 5, 6, or more] weapons doesn't make the rule go away...

If you want to play that game, the rules don't cover models with 3CCW. Therefore, you are claiming that Eldrad cannot ever attack in CC.

Why not they cover how to attack they say you get a bonus for wielding 2 weapons. Nothing specifies 1 weapon the only rules that specify a number of singlehanded weapons are the ones you are quoting, heck i'd argue Eldrad was free to weild his staff and witchblade and still claim the 1+ attack and the benefits of both (not that that would make any difference). For instance if they gave Karandras a pistol he'd get 7 S9 attacks .


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Anything more than that doesn't matter, as the criteria for fighting with "two different special weapons" has been met, thus meaning he does not get any bonus attacks.

Well the counter arguement is that he's not fighting with 2 special CCWs he's fighting with 1 and 1 normal CCW (the pistol). However the rules you are quoting still come from the section that states they apply to models armed with 2 CCWs not ones with 3 or more.

To be fair the rules are pretty obvious that each section applies when you are fighting with that combination not when equiped with that combination. Heck even the restriction tells you that the penalty is for weilding too many complex weapons not for being equiped with them.

RaI is pretty obvious Eldrad gains a bonus attack. RaW is debatable either way. Ra"commonly played" is that he gets the bonus attack.

except that a Witchblade & the Staff of Ulthamar are "Special Close Combat Weapons" and not chainswords or pistols. And there are rules that determine how you may [or in this case may not] use Special Weapons.

And it says if you are EQUIPPED with 2, you have to pick one. When you pick one, you can never [yes, never] claim a bonus attack for having more than one weapon. If the rule was meant to imply that you only get the effects of one weapon and not both, it would have said that, but it says you never get an attack bonus. It doesn't say ''unless you have a pistol,'' it says never.

FlingitNow wrote:RaI is pretty obvious Eldrad gains a bonus attack. RaW is debatable either way. Ra"commonly played" is that he gets the bonus attack.

And you know RaI because you Wrote the Eldar Codex and the Main Rulebook yes?

You also know the Rules as "commonly" played because you play in every single club and GW in the world all at once?

And it says if you are EQUIPPED with 2,

Actually it doesn't it says if you are equiped with 2 single handed weapons the following combinations tell you what to do and in the guiven case it tells you the effect for wielding (or in this case penalty). Eldrad does have 2 he has 3.

And you know RaI because you Wrote the Eldar Codex and the Main Rulebook yes?

I didn;t actually state I knew I just said it was pretty obvious. However why would I have to be the author to know the RaI?

FlingitNow wrote:I didn;t actually state I knew I just said it was pretty obvious. However why would I have to be the author to know the RaI?

Because only the author knows what he intended to write. To claim you know the "intent" of a rule when you did not write it smacks of extreme arrogance.

Because only the author knows what he intended to write. To claim you know the "intent" of a rule when you did not write it smacks of extreme arrogance.

Why? Some times it is easy to work out what the author meant from what he's written. If you beleive being able to understand language beyond the literal makes me arrogant that's your look out, to me that just means I'm not autistic.

How do you know the RaW? How do you know what is written in the text? Your teachers could have been having a big conspiracy to teach you completely the worng way to read or you could just be hallucinating.

Just like I know when it says subtract a -1 modifer from a dice roll they mean you minus 1 from the dice roll not add 1. Some times using linguistic skills requires you to look beyond the literal particularly when it comes to GW rules writing.

In spirit, I agree with FlingitNow. In practice, if/when I play Eldrad I'll leave it up to my opponent so it never gets stupid.

I see Gwar's point of view on the RaW, but think that this is an issue not covered in 5th edition because the codex is old. If everyone agrees that it's a permissive rules set, then Eldrad probably can't attack per RaW unless he uses his base attacks with no mods. There simply isn't a rule for someone with two specials and a ccw. There are rules for parts of that, but no inkling of how they interact together except the 'never' comment that Gwar is putting forth.

OP: The idea you should embrace is that Gwar is not giving you a definitive answer. He's giving you a hardline rules version and we know there are tons of things in the game that are unplayable or wonky if we read them literally (as Fling pointed out -1 mods etc). You got good advice above - read all the arguments (there is a large thread of this not too far back) and see what makes more sense to you and your gaming area.

I think that's all the usual arguments on this out of the way.

To summarise:
Some feel that models with 3 weapons, 2 of which are special CCW's can't get the bonus attack because they have to choose one or the other, and the rules for wielding 2 different SCCW's say you can't get the +1.

Others feel that the rules for wielding multiple weapons refer to which weapons you are choosing to use that round, rather than the weapons the model is carrying, and so you choose which two weapons the model is actually using that phase, and if you choose one of the SCCW's and a normal CCW, you get the +1.

The RAW on both of these points has been debated at length in the past. Until GW decide to FAQ it, just discuss it with your opponent pre-game if you have a character that falls into this category.