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List updated:

HQ:

Shas'el with AFP, Missile Pod, Positional Relay, HW Target lock, HW Multi-tracker (107)

Changed for saving points and adding an AFP for hordes. Will be running with the Fireknifes most of the time.

Elites:

XV8 Crisis 'Fireknife' Team (216)
Shas'ui Team Leader with Fusion Blaster, Plasma Rifle, HW Target lock, Bonding Knife, HWDC; 1 Shield Drone
Shas'ui with Plasma Rifle, Missile Pod, Multi-tracker
Shas'ui with Plasma Rifle, Missile Pod, Multi-tracker

Reverted them back to a regular Fk team, with a Helios team leader. Will house the commander most of the time. I would really want to get another Shield Drone for them, but I don't know where to find the points

XV8 Crisis 'Heatwave' Team (143)
Shas'ui Team Leader with TL FLamers, Missile Pod, Bonding Knife
Shas'ui with TL Flamers, Missile pod
Shas'ui with TL Missile Pod, Flamer

These will either Deep strike to eliminate vulnerable units (such as lootas) or advance on an enemy objective behind a screen of devilfishes. Hopefully, they will get their flamers to bear before they are killed. I will try them out whenever I can squeeze a game in."

XV8 Crisis 'Helios' Team (196)
Shas'ui Team Leader with Fusion Blaster, Plasma Rifle, Multi-tracker, Bonding Knife
Shas'ui with Fusion Blaster, Plasma Rifle, Multi-tracker
Shas'ui with Fusion Blaster, Plasma Rifle, Multi-tracker

The Helios team will be deep striking with the help of the Pos Relay and Pathfinder devilfishes to ensure the destruction of an important enemy unit

Troops:

6 Fire Warriors (60)
Devilfish with Disruption Pod (85)

6 Fire Warriors (60)

6 Fire Warriors (60)

Going for minimalist Fishes since the tournament I'm going to will not be playing KP. Instead, there will be a combination of objectives and VPs (with objectives netting you x VPs). The footed FWs are going in the PF fishes. The FW teams are still min size, unfortunatley, but I think it won't matter too much with this list. I'll know better when I get a few games under my belt.

Fast Attack:

5 Pathfinders (60)
Devilfish with Disruption Pod & Marker Beacon (85)

5 Pathfinders (60)
Devilfish with Disruption Pod & Marker Beacon (85)

Quite a few more MLs in there than in the first list. FWs go in the Fishes.

Heavy Support:

XV88 Broadside Team (203)
Shas'ui Team Leader with ASS, BK, HW BSF, HWDC; 2 Shield Drones
Shas'ui with ASS

point taken about the target lock, I swapped it for a BK instead. The BSF are for the inevitable DoW mission.

Hammerhead Gunship (165)
with Railgun, Burstcannons, Multi-tracker & Disruption Pod

Hammerhead Gunship (165)
with Railgun, Burstcannons, Multi-tracker & Disruption Pod

Got not points to upgrade them further, so they are the same as before.

So what does Dakka think?

C&C most heartily welcome.

Warboss Tufgrim wrote:XV8 Crisis 'Heatwave' Team

I dislike the closeness of flamers in general, but eh.

Warboss Tufgrim wrote:Fire Warrior Team 6 Shas'la Devilfish with Disruption Pod
Fire Warrior Team 6 Shas'la
These guys will probably spend much time in reserves, as they are rather squisy. Only coming in to claim objectives in the later rounds.

Why not put them in the Pathfinders' fish right away? In general, I disagree with min FW crews, like eldar DAVUs. A full dozen of FWs is a nasty shooting crew, they survive better, etc.

If I had ran these min units in today's match, I'd have lost. With their Warfish obliterated by FireDragons, out of a squad of 10, the 'Ui managed to hold out to secure the game winning objective.

Warboss Tufgrim wrote:Pathfinder Team 6 Shas'la
Devilfish with Disruption Pod, Decoy Launchers

Why bother with DLs? Their use will come up so seldom. You may as well invest the points for a Warfish or not bother with anything.

Warboss Tufgrim wrote:XV88 Broadside Team
Shas'ui TL with ASS, HWTL, HWDC: 2 Shield Drones
Shas'ui with ASS

To me, a BK is well worth saving even one suit to rally. I'd spend the few point for a BK.

Warboss Tufgrim wrote:Hammerhead Gunship Railgun, BCs, MT, DP

Since the BCs are largely anti-I, I'd get Target Locks.

I run my D'fish as Warfish to cut down on KPs. Something you might consider. Also, I use mostly FireStorms (BC/MP/MT) so I save a lot more points on suits than my FireKnife favoring colleagues.

Overall, an okay list, but the minimum troops units are your weak spot. Even coming from Reserve, the savvy opponent will wait for that one FW 6 pack to appear and then pounce.

Brothererekose wrote:I dislike the closeness of flamers in general, but eh.

I feel it is.. reassuring to have a unit capable of absolutely destroying hordes. I've read some tacticas on the matter and thought it sounded good, so I'm going to give it a try. Note that I haven't tried it in practice yet, so my take on the unit may change. That and it is quite unexpected to advance as a Tau player.. it's always worth the looks people give you

Brothererekose wrote:Why not put them in the Pathfinders' fish right away? In general, I disagree with min FW crews, like eldar DAVUs. A full dozen of FWs is a nasty shooting crew, they survive better, etc.

If I had ran these min units in today's match, I'd have lost. With their Warfish obliterated by FireDragons, out of a squad of 10, the 'Ui managed to hold out to secure the game winning objective.

I also have a problem with the min. size squads. I'd much rather prefer 10 or 12 for the reasons you stated. By having the PF fish close to the table edge they can embark the same turn they come in from reserves, depending on objectives and such. I am just as likely to start the unit on the board and embark first turn.

Brothererekose wrote:Why bother with DLs? Their use will come up so seldom. You may as well invest the points for a Warfish or not bother with anything.

The general idea is to keep the fish as mobile as possible, to provide the Heatwaves with some mobile cover while they advance. I do agree though, it won't come up very often. Some playtesting is required for me to decide if it is worth it.

Brothererekose wrote:To me, a BK is well worth saving even one suit to rally. I'd spend the few point for a BK.

That is actually not a problem, as I explain here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/288851.page

Brothererekose wrote:Since the BCs are largely anti-I, I'd get Target Locks.

Most of the time I will use the submunitions shot to splat infantry, which tie in nicely with the BCs, although at the times when I do use the solid shot it could be worth the investement of a TL. I'll try to work it in.

Brothererekose wrote:I run my D'fish as Warfish to cut down on KPs. Something you might consider. Also, I use mostly FireStorms (BC/MP/MT) so I save a lot more points on suits than my FireKnife favoring colleagues.

Overall, an okay list, but the minimum troops units are your weak spot. Even coming from Reserve, the savvy opponent will wait for that one FW 6 pack to appear and then pounce.

Yeah, I quite like both the Warfish and the standard Fish, for different reasons. I mostly like the standard fish because of the Gun drones actually, since they can be really annoying to opponents and I have even won a couple of games because they have been able to contest enemy-held objectives. I like them, and will probably keep them, but I will consider the idea of Warfishes instead as those KP games can be a real when you got those gun drones flying around.

I too am a fan of the Firestorm configuration, but haven't included it in this list. Perhaps that would be more fitting than the Fireknife, or Heatwave team, I don't know. From the limited games I've played with this Fireknife unit they have been absolutely brutal though.

I will have to think the list over and make a re-do tomorrow, and I will most definately be squeezing more Fire Warriors in there.

Thanks for all the tips and comments

Brothererekose wrote:To me, a BK is well worth saving even one suit to rally. I'd spend the few point for a BK.

Warboss Tufgrim wrote:That is actually not a problem, as I explain here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/288851.page

You're wrong though. A surviving suit that was once part of a 4 model unit, let's say 2 Drones and 2 suits, cannot rally without a BK. The unit starts out at 4 models. If there's only one left and he isn't carrying a BK, he can't rally.

I've been playing tau for 4 years. There weren't any changes from 4e to 5e in this regard and the codex is the same. No one has ever tried this argument.

There are instances when you don't need one:
1. There's no need for a BK when you are attaching drones to a Shas'el. They're Independent Characters and will rally once alone (just made sure of this one, yesterday)
2. Paired Suits. When one is destroyed, the other is still at 50% of Original Unit Strength, and thus doesn't need a BK to rally once on its own.

Anything with 3 or more models though, ought to be bonded, IMHO.

I'm not sure. It has been suggested on other Tau forums and reading the codex, it states very specific instances of when drones count for squad size purposes. Checking to see if the unit is under 50% for regrouping is not one of those. It could be that I'm chasing a wild duck here, but it makes sense to me.

Anyway, thats a discussion for the YMDC thread. I will post a revised list later today.

Here's my critique:

Shas'o allows pos relay and Bs5 but he's running in a squad so BS4 is just as good really, I don;t like spending that much on an 'O I always find the 'el better for anything but tiny games.

Your diversified FK team is just too espensive.

The kroot seem a waste of time in this list, not big enough to castle effectively not small enough to hitch a ride and not synergised with anything else in the army. I'd dump them.

Target lock is pointless on the broadside team why would you risk firing 1 RG at a target? You need them both firing at the same target to ensure it's destruction.

I find the heatwave team tio be basically a suicide team and Tau can't really afford that. They're not really fast enough to threaten the enemy objective and avoid his main assault so they either advance into certain doom or stay back field wasting your core firepower on 200pts of nothingness... But if you have a different experience with them let me know .

With all this flab removed from the list you need to look at:

BK on the broadsides.

More MLs

More plasma rifles (for the diversified FK team I prefer a helios to a deathrain as it completements the FK role better).

Another scorefish.

Possibly TL and Flechettes on the hammerheads.

Point taken about the commander, I will see him over as well. Should I still run him as a Fireknife though? Or would a Shield'O/el be better if I change the FK team?

They are about the same points as a regular FK team with 2 Drones. I'm still not sure about them though, some field testing will sort that out.

I agree about the kroot. They will not be in the updated list.

The TL on the Broadsides is there for the moments where I absolutely MUST destroy 2 separate targets. Otherwise I will be shooting them on the same target.

I'll let you know how the Heatwaves fare

Much thanks for the helpful critique Fling

My preferred set up for the el is to take the AFP instead of the Plasma rifle for hordecontrol, give him a MP then either PR (if you're extensively using reserves) or TA (for Bs5) and a targetlock so he can target something different to the team. Then I ensure the team has at least 2 shield drones between them and any attacked IC.

If you're in a situation where you MUST destroy 2 targets with your broadsides then the game is up already and remember you have to declare all your targets before rolling any dice hence you are splitting your fire before you know if either is going down. KIt is always better to throw 2 railgun shots at the highest priority target than throw 1 at it and 1 at the 2nd priority target. Use your hammerheads for the other target if it is also that important.

Okay, updated list finished. I will change the OP as well.

HQ:

Shas'el with AFP, Missile Pod, Positional Relay, HW Target lock, HW Multi-tracker (107)

Changed for saving points and adding an AFP for hordes. Will be running with the Fireknifes most of the time.

Elites:

XV8 Crisis 'Fireknife' Team (216)
Shas'ui Team Leader with Fusion Blaster, Plasma Rifle, HW Target lock, Bonding Knife, HWDC; 1 Shield Drone
Shas'ui with Plasma Rifle, Missile Pod, Multi-tracker
Shas'ui with Plasma Rifle, Missile Pod, Multi-tracker

Reverted them back to a regular Fk team, with a Helios team leader. Will house the commander most of the time. I would really want to get another Shield Drone for them, but I don't know where to find the points

XV8 Crisis 'Heatwave' Team (143)
Shas'ui Team Leader with TL FLamers, Missile Pod, Bonding Knife
Shas'ui with TL Flamers, Missile pod
Shas'ui with TL Missile Pod, Flamer

These will either Deep strike to eliminate vulnerable units (such as lootas) or advance on an enemy objective behind a screen of devilfishes. Hopefully, they will get their flamers to bear before they are killed. I will try them out whenever I can squeeze a game in."

XV8 Crisis 'Helios' Team (196)
Shas'ui Team Leader with Fusion Blaster, Plasma Rifle, Multi-tracker, Bonding Knife
Shas'ui with Fusion Blaster, Plasma Rifle, Multi-tracker
Shas'ui with Fusion Blaster, Plasma Rifle, Multi-tracker

The Helios team will be deep striking with the help of the Pos Relay and Pathfinder devilfishes to ensure the destruction of an important enemy unit

Troops:

6 Fire Warriors (60)
Devilfish with Disruption Pod (85)

6 Fire Warriors (60)

6 Fire Warriors (60)

Going for minimalist Fishes since the tournament I'm going to will not be playing KP. Instead, there will be a combination of objectives and VPs (with objectives netting you x VPs). The footed FWs are going in the PF fishes. The FW teams are still min size, unfortunatley, but I think it won't matter too much with this list. I'll know better when I get a few games under my belt.

Fast Attack:

5 Pathfinders (60)
Devilfish with Disruption Pod & Marker Beacon (85)

5 Pathfinders (60)
Devilfish with Disruption Pod & Marker Beacon (85)

Quite a few more MLs in there than in the first list. FWs go in the Fishes.

Heavy Support:

XV88 Broadside Team (203)
Shas'ui Team Leader with ASS, BK, HW BSF, HWDC; 2 Shield Drones
Shas'ui with ASS

point taken about the target lock, I swapped it for a BK instead. The BSF are for the inevitable DoW mission.

Hammerhead Gunship (165)
with Railgun, Burstcannons, Multi-tracker & Disruption Pod

Hammerhead Gunship (165)
with Railgun, Burstcannons, Multi-tracker & Disruption Pod

Got not points to upgrade them further, so they are the same as before.

So what do you guys think? I will be playtesting this list during the week and report my experinces with it.

Thanks for the help so far!

Looks good and pretty efficient. With eth positional relay I presume you'll be holding the FW squad with Devilfish in reserve to ensure it's safety until you deside it comes on (turn 4-5 presumably)?

Other than that looks pretty solid and fairly streamlined.

I'd play test the heatwaves before the tournament if they don't do anything swap a pair of deathrains and then you can afford the extra gubbins on the FKs and HHs.

Let us know how you get on.

ps why don't they just rename Dawn of War as "Dawn of Tau are screwed"?

Double post.

Yeah DoW allows the enemy to deploy right on top of me AND get the benefit of night fighting, it's like they thought well lets screw over the Tau (like the rest of the book doesn't do that enough) what will hurt them? I know let their opponent deploy on the half way line, great but won't they get shot up? No we'll put in night fighting so he can't target them unless he moves his units into assault range...

Yeah, they really thought that one out..

It kind of feels Like all of yoru suits are basicly throw away units. Flamers and fusion guns are great but you have to get so scary close to use them I often fine you are better off taking other things. Personally I go with the Plasma Rocket pod Unit and I bring a couple of shield drones for wound allocation. It seems a wate to sink so many points for such quick to death units as crises suits. Don't get me wrong I like your army for the most part. I just dont like getting to close to the bad guys to be effective.

You will have to rely on your broadsides and hammer heads to punch out enemy armor. don't rely on your crises suits for this.

I'm not a fan of taking min squads unless you plan on never ever disembarking them.

To free up some points I would look to your crises suits. maybe backing one squad to just 2 models and putting twin linked rocket pods on them. maybe some drone controlers for some gun drones. I find that works well in a pinch and might free up some points for some needed upgrades to your tanks. Just a couple of suggestions.

vagorin wrote:It kind of feels Like all of yoru suits are basicly throw away units. Flamers and fusion guns are great but you have to get so scary close to use them I often fine you are better off taking other things. Personally I go with the Plasma Rocket pod Unit and I bring a couple of shield drones for wound allocation. It seems a wate to sink so many points for such quick to death units as crises suits. Don't get me wrong I like your army for the most part. I just dont like getting to close to the bad guys to be effective.

You will have to rely on your broadsides and hammer heads to punch out enemy armor. don't rely on your crises suits for this.

I'm not a fan of taking min squads unless you plan on never ever disembarking them.

To free up some points I would look to your crises suits. maybe backing one squad to just 2 models and putting twin linked rocket pods on them. maybe some drone controlers for some gun drones. I find that works well in a pinch and might free up some points for some needed upgrades to your tanks. Just a couple of suggestions.

The flamer suits also doubles as a Deathrain squad (it's even a Deathrain in there!). In my experience Missile Pods are pretty good at taking out light/medium (AV10-12) vehicles, so that's what they will be doing for the first turns. For heavier tanks I will of course engage with Railgun goodnes

The plan is indeed, as you say, not to disembark the fire warriors. That would see the, destroyed in no time.

Thanks for the comments though