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All pinning weapons (snipers being the major thought) would be intended to do some damage.
my suggestion is:
If a pinning weapon glances, then it counts as doing crew shaken.
if a pinning weapon penetrates, then it counts as crew stunned
in both situations, these are ON TOP of any other damage result. (so a vehicle is glanced then gets a stunned, it obviously counts as stunned. ) that is to say, it auto scores an extra hit.
my second idea is in either situation, roll a D3.
on a 1, nothing
2, crew shaken
3 stunned.
With only the modifier being if it glances, -1 to the result
and if they take extra armour (or any simmiar rule), -1 again.
Captain Solon wrote: that is to say, it auto scores an extra hit.
Ok. Why?
The pinning effect of weapons is due to them forcing troops to keep their heads down. The demoralising effect of having sniper rounds whizzing past your ear, or having a bit of extra shrapnel falling around you, is largely over-ridden by sitting encased in an armoured shell.
So I'm not really seeing it, to be honest. At best, I could see a small bonus on the damage chart (although the fact that this would then apply to all Barrage weapons would seem to be a little unbalanced). A whole extra damage effect seems a little extreme.
No, pinning should not affect vehicles. The circumstance of a sniper hitting vital components such as visors is represented by the fact that they have the Rending rule.
And I very much doubt that a 25-tonne APC will grind to a halt and try to find cover when shot at by a sniper.
I'm not sure you appreciate the innovation that has gone into modern armor. The visor slot is not a weak point on all tanks\APC's in fact if used at all they are designed around Embrasures so that the angle of incidence for a shot to even go into it is extremly low. A sniper firing from an elevated position will have a VERY tough time hitting it let alone punching through the armored glass that is in place.
Personally I hate the crew shaken rule and think that it should be done away with completly or that it should only affect one weapon per result. This is for the same reason that insaniak has mentioned, that is inside of a tank you feel invulnerable, this is why they don't take leadership roles.
Sniper weapons can already affect things like ork trukks or DE Raiders. It's called Rending. Which creates perfectly adequate crew stunned or crew shaken results, or even more damaging effects. Since you're talking about open topped vehicles, they already get a +1 on the damage table too.
tldr; Sniper rifles can damage things like ork trukks, and it is represented in the rules.
No. Vehicles are normally used to break a pinning situation. I.E. "Oh snap, snipers, GTF in the tank". Pinning weapons can damage vehicles already (assuming it has high enough Str / rending) so I feel the rules are fine as is.
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I see the OP's point, or at least what he is suggesting. If it applied I'd all I'd say only to open tops, but even then, the current rules are pretty fair with snipers.
Mine shot down a Valkryie a little while back.
That said, I feel that sniper weapons are too weak. A high powered rifle today can utilize anti-tank rounds that punch through armor. Imagine what they could do in the future?
While I don't think their chances at slamming down 40k vehicles are too weak, I do feel that a weapon with the Sniper descriptor should let you pick the model you are shooting at, and add an instant death factor on a 6, though cover saves would still apply.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/04/12 18:52:21
......the Sniper weapons in game terms are primarily for damaging a targets weakpoint, IE bolterguns need a 6 to wound a Greater Daemon while a sniper still needs a 4+
but against a Guardsman the boltgun needs a 3 while the sniper still needs a 4+
they weren't made to be realistic, none of this game was, they were made to have a purpose in the game and they achieve that purpose.
Valkyrie wrote:No, pinning should not affect vehicles. The circumstance of a sniper hitting vital components such as visors is represented by the fact that they have the Rending rule.
I agree. The way snipers freak out the crew is by putting shots on weak points in armor. Being in a tank and having a bullet come through the seam under the turret (or wherever) and bounce around the crew compartment for a bit is plenty frightening, and is represented adequately by rolling a penetrating hit on the vehicle damage table via the Rending USR. I'm not sure that needs to be represented another way.
Here we go again, trying to glorify snipers and make them into the ultimte unit. The rules that sniper like units use are fine, I tried to enter some logic into this conversation but somehow it got lost in the "Sniper rifles have improved but deffensive measures against them haven't" argument.
Look some things you guys should look up to try and see the whole picture are:
- Classical Mechanics
- Metalurgy (somewhat)
- Transferance Principal
- Transition Ballistics
- Terminal Ballistics (This is the BIG ONE)
And here are some more facts on just how effective snipers are against Hard targets such as Tanks and Baby Tanks:
**WARNING!! SOME LANGUAGE AND REALISTIC VIEW OF WAR AHEAD! IF YOU THINK YOU MAY BE OFFENDED THEN DONT CLICK!**
Two things are going to happen... the tank crew will button up and take it. In which case this will happen to you:
Or if they do decide to engage you, this is what will happen:
I'm only highlighting a trend that has bugged me since that movie "Enemy At The Gates" came out. People think that a guy with a rifle who sneaks around all quite like is going to win every battle, every time.
Snipers are useless against vehicles, this is a balance issue. The additional D6 against vehicles doesn't make any sense. What might be fair is Str: D6, this gives you a wide range of strength when shooting at infantry to represent the sniper not always going for the head-shot and a potential but pretty low probability of hurting a vehicle, and even then only the softer parts of the more solid tanks. Only allow invulnerable saves or ignore cover if you want.
if im in a land raider im not going to see or be scared by a pinning weapon other than mabey ordanance put that wont pin me to the floor but brace for impact
2010/04/14 02:07:10
Subject: Re:pinning has an affect on vehicles too.
ComputerGeek01 wrote:I'm only highlighting a trend that has bugged me since that movie "Enemy At The Gates" came out. People think that a guy with a rifle who sneaks around all quite like is going to win every battle, every time.
HA HA excellent observation and i have to agree with you. Vehicles shouldn't be affected by sniper fire unless its one super rc pro awesome shot, but i think thats what rending is for
Either way Solon, playtest it a couple times against a couple different armies, bounce the idea off your buddies then come to dakka for our opinions
Thunderfrog wrote:If anything, it should read as Str 6 AP 3 with an additional d6 vs Vehicles and AP 1 on a 5 or 6 to hit.
Then add pinning.
First, that's seriously way too powerful. There is no reason that high-calibre, high velocity solid shot should be better for tank hunting than fusion bombs, tank-hunting missiles, and laser cannons. Likewise, there is no reason that they should regularly defeat personal armor that armor-piercing minirockets and monomolecular crystal blades cannot. Last, giving them an S score defeats the purpose of the unit, that is, that they're alright at engaging anything, grot to wraithlord.
The point of snipers is that they target weak points. This is why they have a reasonable chance at wounding everything, and a very small chance of hiting the chink in the terminator armor or the crack in the tank's hull.
If they were universally better, we would've never developed automatic weapons. The sniper isn't just arbitrarily better at everything. He just has a different way of engaging opponents that complements that of the line soldier. He is fine as a low-cost troop with a specialized role.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ductvader wrote:Pretty sure if you shoot a sniper round at a tank...it's just going to move towards you faster.
Yes this is what happens in the vast majority of instances.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/04/18 06:00:25
Yea, I was on crack or something when I threw out that statline, but when you are paying 28 points per pathfinder, he isn't necessarily a low cost troop.
They aren't quite worth their points in a MEQ enviroment which results in a lot of drop-pods carrying flamer troops who kill them the second they become useful.
If they dont wound except for on a 4+, I'd like to see them better at anti-troop. Autokill troops on 5+ to wound as a pathfinder, 6+ for rangers, with the exception being vehicles and MC's. (covers as normal)
But being Heavy 1, with all that goes with it... (Not being able to fire in the first round on table in certain missions, being stuck in place more often than not.. it really adds up to some suck for a lot of sniper units.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/04/19 14:48:29
There's just an acre of you fellas, isn't there? 
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