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so i just had an idea (scary i know)...
with the addition of storm ravens, and more to my point, ceramite plating (which has not seen standard play as of yet, with the exception of the monolith in essence) will lessen the effective power of melta type weapons...
or atleast when people start converting and playing them that is...

so i was wondering...
could more ceramite plating be part of the answer to many cheesy armies?
alot of armies now a days are based around bringing as many meltas as possible...
but by making them less effective against some (not all) armies, more people will be forced to use more reliable ways to deal with anti tank, thus adding more variation to armies...

now i am not saying meltas are too be made obsolete or ceramite plating made the norm on most vehicles, but with a few (storm raven, maybe things like drop pods, or even landraiders) things that are commonly taken in many armies, it would chaneg up armies list greatly...

and by no means should ceramite plating be a cheap add on (we all know the storm raven is a steal for what it does), but it could be seen more commonly at a significant points cost

What do you consider cheesy? is a good strategy cheesy? is a widely known strategy cheesy? if it works, is it cheesy?

I dont believe there is such a thing as cheese, simply effective lists that opposing players are frustrated with. And cheese is just their way of justifying why they have lost.

Melta is one of the few reliable anti-tank methods. Aside from rail guns, things like lascannons have a very low chance of penetrating armor 13 or 14. Again just because something works doesnt mean something should immediately be made to stop it. Melta guns have their own flaws fundamentally built into them. To be effective they need to be within 6". That is your balance, out maneuver it or kill it before it gets to you.

im not trying to get into a whats cheesy and what not here...

and with things like drop pods and attack bikes, the whole 'short range melta' problem is pretty much fixed...

Meltaguns are reliable and reasonable priced, yet require careful tactics to be effective. Hence, they're balanced... what's your problem, exactly?

To complain that such a weapon needs to be limited because it's widely used is akin to telling the Army that they should stop using guns because, while they're effective in combat, you're tired of looking at them.

krusty wrote:now i am not saying meltas are too be made obsolete

krusty wrote:now i am not saying meltas are too be made obsolete

krusty wrote:NOW I AM NOT SAYING MELTAS ARE TO BE MADE OBSOLETE

i am not saying there is a problem with meltas...
i know how a melta works, i know how they are good and how they arent...
this thread isnt about meltas...
its about how more ceramite plating might change the dynamics of army structure and game play...

krusty wrote:
could more ceramite plating be part of the answer to many cheesy armies?
alot of armies now a days are based around bringing as many meltas as possible...

Looks like you got a beef with melta to me.


*edit double post*

mrwittwer wrote:Looks like you got a beef with melta to me.

so you gunna keep trolling about some words that a few people are obviously going to take too seriously, or actually discuss the topic i posted?

Given that a lot of armies take no armour (tyranids) or a small amount of light armour at most, at which melta is fairly ineffective, I'm not certain that the option of ceramite plating would make any real difference.

krusty wrote:so you gunna keep trolling about some words that a few people are obviously going to take too seriously, or actually discuss the topic i posted?

Let's be mature, hmm? Proper spelling would help you get your point across clearly.

I really fail to see any reason to nerf the effectiveness of meltaguns, especially against cheesy units like Land Raiders and Storm Ravens. If anything, such a rule is making it even harder to combat a cheesy AV14 spam list.

krusty wrote:

mrwittwer wrote:Looks like you got a beef with melta to me.

so you gunna keep trolling about some words that a few people are obviously going to take too seriously, or actually discuss the topic i posted?

Alright, if you wanna discuss lets discuss.

Lets stop for a moment and think of all the "reliable" anti-tank methods a standard marine army has, and perhaps a few other armies along the way.

Melta gun - 12" range, effective within 6" 2D6 to armor penetration. 7 with two dice is needed to penetrate AV14. Assault weapon so moving and shooting is an option and can be equipped on a large range of units for easy maneuver ability. Reliable

Multi-melta - 24" range effective within 12". 2D6 for armor penetration. Heavy weapon but can be fielded by basic infantry. Still small range makes difficult use but combined with rhino can be effective. Used on a landraider or dreadnought can become very effective. Reliable.

Lascannon - 48" range. More often than not a 3 is needed to hit. Then a 6 to penetrate. Then a 5 or 6 to destroy. Terrible odds, and its probably going to be in cover too which means there is a 4+ cover involved. Unreliable

Missile Launcher - cant even penetrate AV14. Unreliable/Unusable

Autocannon - cant even penetrate AV14. Unreliable/Unusable

Assault Cannon - Strength 6 and rending. This means 3 to hit, 6 to rend, and a 3(on D3) to penetrate and 5 or 6. Now i dont have the mathhammer on hand but i believe the chances are actually slightly higher than a lascannon due to having 4 shots. However if its in cover, a 4+ ends it all. However, the only things that can wield assault cannons are terminators and vehicles making for very limited options. Questionably Usable.

Conversion Beamer - Must be 42" away. Heavy 1 blast. I dont believe i have ever seen anyone use a conversion beamer before. But even if they do the target must be 42" away, which is quite difficult to do and it is a blast weapon. So you need to roll hit or very low scatter to be on target. And on a 5 or 6 it penetrates. And another 4+ to destroy. Then a 4+ for cover, which at 42" that landraider is more than likely going to get. This is all assuming you can get 42" away from the tank. Unreliable.

Orbital Bombardment - Strength 10 ap 1 unlimited range. One shot. Always Scatters. Unless you roll double 1's or a 3 with the perfect scatter angle to stay on the tanks hull, you are missing. And on a 5 or 6 it penetrates. And another 4+ to destroy. Then a 4+ for cover, which is variable. Still low odds and not cost effective. Unreliable.

Chainfist - close combat. 2D6 to armor penetration. Versus any player with half a brain that tank is going to be moving flat out as much as possible or not even allowed to be hit in CC by something as slow as a terminator. However, it is 6's to hit then a 7 with 2D6 to penetrate and then a 5 or a 6 to destroy. Unreliable.

Powerfist - cant even penetrate. Unreliable.


So with only 1 maybe 2 effective ways of killing a landraider. How and why would adding ceramite plating be balanced and needed?

mrwittwer wrote:So with only 1 maybe 2 effective ways of killing a landraider. How and why would adding ceramite plating be balanced and needed?

Should there be a lot of reliable ways of killing a Land Raider?

Extra plating would make land raider rush lists invincible. Personally I would like to see more + 2d6 wargear on stuff other than Kharn equivalents, chain fists, MCs and melta type weapons. It might help to de-mech 40k.

sebster wrote:

mrwittwer wrote:So with only 1 maybe 2 effective ways of killing a landraider. How and why would adding ceramite plating be balanced and needed?

Should there be a lot of reliable ways of killing a Land Raider?

No, but if there is only 1 reliable way. Why get rid of it?