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Hey Dakka,

Although I have been painting and collecting for a while, I'm new to actually playing 40K. For SM, is it ever preferable to keep the flamer in a 10 man squad vs a meltagun (assuming you have the points)? In my lengthy game experience (2 games) the flamer seems a little... underwhelming.

It really depends on what you want the unit to do. In general the Meltagun is better as you have Bolters and the like to take care of hordes. I usually always take a combi-flamer for my sergeant however.

If you can get a flamer within range they work great. A lot of times though you never get close enough to the enemy. If you aren't playing a kill points game and if you can do combat squads put the flamer in one squad and the heavy weapon in the other. Move forward with the flamer and keep the heavy weapon stable and shooting. Melta guns are generally more useful as people take a lot of vehicles lately and you need meltas to kill them and not flamers.

Aslo remember that the flamer and meltagun have very different roles. The flamer is for anti troop and will incinerate those in cover, so no cover saves. Because of the template you need to get very close to use. It is effective for softening up a unit before assaulting, or as mentioned driving troops out of cover.

Meltagun is close range anti tank as it gives 2D6 armour pen and +1 so is completely different compared to a flamer. Its high strength and low ap is also useful for scoring wounds on monstrous creatures and tough infantry.

The flamer is bolter profile, and if you get into range you can cover a entire unit with just the template alone. So that single template from one shot is scoring a lot more hits - not bad for free eh or even 5 points?

IMO it's unneccesary to equip tac squads with melta guns. There are far better platforms for anti vehicle duty in the marine dex (Attack bikes, Land Speeders or Sternguard for example) so I prefer to keep the tac squads for anti horde, YMMV though

A meltagun is 5 points for a tactical squad. A attack bike (while better) is 50 points. That's a big difference just to use another unit for anti tank purposes.

Ouze wrote:Hey Dakka,

Although I have been painting and collecting for a while, I'm new to actually playing 40K. For SM, is it ever preferable to keep the flamer in a 10 man squad vs a meltagun (assuming you have the points)? In my lengthy game experience (2 games) the flamer seems a little... underwhelming.

Yeah I think the meltas will always trump the flamer. But I do agree that a combi flamer on the Srgt would be a great plan. Its nice to have a flamer around but i would rather carry a aman portable str 8 weapon then a strength 4 template. But that is just me.

as mentioned, they do different things, so it's sort of apples and oranges. The one thing with the flamer, though, is that it is probably the weapon which requires the most skill in order to be effective (especially compared to, say heavy weapons where you just sit there and blast whatever sticks its head out). If you're not good at using template weapons, that marine might as well be carrying a laspistol. of course, the irony is that the only way to get better with them is to use them.

mercer wrote:A meltagun is 5 points for a tactical squad. A attack bike (while better) is 50 points. That's a big difference just to use another unit for anti tank purposes.

Adding in the attack bike or land speeder's extra speed, survivability, and range (they have multi meltas), I'd agree that melta work should fall to your Fast Attack slots.

In the old codex,you could take traits,which gives you a flamer AND a melta,oh the nice old times...

Any ways,I usually give them flamers cuz its free.And I keep my tac squad in combat squads against orks or mob armies(kill points other wise),so when they kill my missile team in the front,I flame them

I prefer flamers against hordy armies, because the flamer can cover approx. 12+ units in one big fwoosh. Meltaguns get one shot, that might not even hit. Against orks, tyranids, and other crummy armour-saved units, flamers let you skip not one but TWO saves - to hit and armour saves. All you need to do is wound, which never is too hard.

If you can get up close to the enemy flamers just destroy everything. I had a grey hunter pack get in and flame a squad of fire warriors. Two flamers, bolters. 3 fire warriors left and running for their lives.

On the other hand. Meltas against vehicles means a really dead vehicle very fast. Depends on who you are fighting and what task you need the weapon to do.

JSK-Fox wrote:I prefer flamers against hordy armies, because the flamer can cover approx. 12+ units in one big fwoosh. Meltaguns get one shot, that might not even hit. Against orks, tyranids, and other crummy armour-saved units, flamers let you skip not one but TWO saves - to hit and armour saves. All you need to do is wound, which never is too hard.

First off, thank you everyone for all of the responses, especially the attack bike ones.

I wasn't aware that you skipped 2 rolls with the flamer - I thought no cover save only. That makes it pretty awesome for free. I'll model my Sargeant with interchangeable arms, I think, and use the flamer for Orks. Maybe use it to make a combi-flamer instead.

Flamers are amazing. Autohitting and ignoring cover, they are an extremely potent weapon. I'd give tactical squads flamers before meltas. A single melta is not a reliable tank killer, and you've just wasted all your bolter shots. Use specialists for tank killing, and tactical squads for what they are meant to do: hose down infantry with S4 AP5 death.

It depends on what armies your opponents take and how they focus their lists. If you find youself unable to kill all their orks or guardsmen, then you'll want flamers. If you find yourself unable to take out their landraiders, then you might want to look at using meltas.

Flamers are good against hordes of low toughness, low armour enemies. Their usefulness falls off quickly against enemies such as SMs who have good armour or Tyranid Warriors who have lots of wounds and will march through the flame to mince you up.

Meltas are great against Tyranid Warriors because they can Instant Kill them. They are also good for putting wounds onto Monstrous Creatures which a flamer barely touches, and of course they are great for zapping tanks.

So it depends on what you are going to be fighting.

I can't remember who said it, but someone suggested a ratio of 2:1 for melta's and flamers (might have been Sanctjud...i think? who knows )

But yeah, Apples and Oranges really. Flamers are godly against Eldar, 'nid and Ork swarms, guardsmen. Against MEQ's they are alright- they get armour saves anyway, but a good template will net you a nice number of hits- downside of course being range. The other thing too about flamers is, whilst their range is assault range, you may "deny the charge", where your oppenent removes models closest to the flamer unit, making the nearest model in the squad you shot at out of range for your assault. Not a good thing, standing in the open after denying yourself a charge with a flamer, not good at all!

Meltagun's fill a strange role IMO. Great anti-tank gun, and anti-MC, but it also eats marines and TEQ for breakfast. I find it a must to deal with land raiders, and its also very nice for its transport popping ability- remember you can assault a unit that fell out of a exploding transport. I also find it a must for easy wounds on MC's.

I also think that the squads other equipment is important to the choice. A sarge with a fist, a marine with a meltagun in a rhino with a combimelta makes for a nice anti-tank/MC unit. A squad with 2 flamers and a sarge with a combi-flamer in a rhino is good anti-troop- unload the marines and pour flame/boltgun fire onto your enemies

just as a mock up for troops choices, if i was playing CSM-
10 CSM w/ 2 flamers, combiflamer/powersword champ, rhino
10 CSM w/ 2 Meltas, combimelta/powerfist champ, rhino w/ combimelta
10 CSM w/ 2 Meltas, powerweapon/melta bomb champ, rhino

So I've got my anti-infantry squad, for unloading and burning/rapid firing, I've got my powerfist and meltagun bus to take on tanks and MC's, and i've got my in squad that can support either squad with a counter charge or more melta. Maybe throw some icons in and termicide, a havok squad with ML's or AC's for transports, some oblits for versitility and a Prince for bashin' stuff, and voila! CSM undivided


-edit- one last note on flamers- they absolutely rock in armies with low BS (I'm lookin' at you, burna boyz! )

If a flamer can hit 6 models, it is as lethal vs. marines as plasmaguns. with cover, you only need to hit 3.

As far as i'm aware the best anti-armour and anti-infantry combo is what I have in my second squad of tactical marines

A flamer and multi melta.

Combat squadded so flamer is in one squad with the Sergeant and other squad has melta you have the close combat lethality of the flamer and Sergeant, and the longer (bolter range) of the Multi Melta to take out hurty things like tanks.

Only other combo would be meltagun and Plasma Cannon, but that makes for a costly tac squad.

The only point left uncovered as far as I can see is the context of what else is in your army. If your other units feature sufficient antitank, then flamers are great to make your tactical squads even better at killing infantry. If your army is low on good antitank units, you may need to put meltaguns in Tac squads to give you more chances.

It’s a question of whether you need the tactical squads to be flexible and capable of engaging both hard targets and infantry, or whether you can let them focus on the anti-infantry role. Remember that pretty much every time they fire a meltagun at a tank, the bolter shots are going to waste. Whereas any target you’d want to use the flamer against, the bolters can also hurt.

Combi-weapons for sgts are another great option I’m just starting to get into. Oftentimes you’re only going to get one or two really good chances to fire a meltagun or a flamer in the game, so adding a second shot that only works once can really make the most of that opportunity. Or you can take it on the Sgt in a 5-man squad intended to ride in a razorback for SM. This saves points compared to a full 10 man squad, but still gives you a chance to bust a tank or fwoosh a squad once during the game.

Meltas..."it's the only way to be sure."
Flamers: when you don't have a mass of str 4 dakka/choppy on the joes of the army.

I run Plagues, Wolves, Loyalists, always kitted with 2 squads with 2 meltas and 1 squad with 2 flamers. If I go with a 4th troop it's generally plasma.

Combi weapons are good, but I'm unsure how to properly model them on infantry.

1. Buy them on ebay.
2. Take the individual weapons, cut down the special to fit onto the bolter.
3. Get the Blood Angels fire pistols (no one will be using them anyway), and say they are one-shot weapons carried in addition to the bolter, rather than a true combi-weapon.

In the case of two special weapons per squad, you're likely to be better off splitting a Melta Gun and a Flamethrower in each squad. It gives you greater redundancy and the ability to engage more targets of either type.

Terminus wrote:1. Buy them on ebay.
2. Take the individual weapons, cut down the special to fit onto the bolter.
3. Get the Blood Angels fire pistols (no one will be using them anyway), and say they are one-shot weapons carried in addition to the bolter, rather than a true combi-weapon.

I resent number 3 but agree with 1 and 2. Take one squad of each is what i always do or the best of both worlds, Plasma guns!

No, because a single meltagun is not reliable by any stretch of the imagination. Think about these scenarios, which would you prefer?

Two melta/flamer mixed squads approach a unit in a transport.
1. Both squads shoot their meltas and both fail to destroy the vehicle. Both units are now in prime position to be counter-attacked by the unit in the transport.
2. They succeed in destroying the vehicle, but it takes both squads' meltas. Both units are now in prime position to be counter-attacked by the unit in the transport.
3. First squad gets lucky and pops transport. Second squad unloads on the now exposed unit (melta not being as valuable as its a single shot that will face a 4+ cover save).

OR

A melta/melta and flamer/flamer squads approach the same unit.
1. Melta squad fires on the vehicle and fails to destroy it. Flamer squad now has the option of forgoing shooting to charge the transport with krak grenades, running out of the enemy's threat range, or shoot at some other target that may be available.
2. Melta squad fires on the vehicle and destroys it. Flamer squad burns the crap out of the unit inside, with two cover-ignoring auto-hitting templates rather than one.
3. See #2.

Terminus:

Two Melta Guns in different units are exactly as reliable as two Melta Guns in the same unit. The difference being that if the first Melta Gun destroys its target, the second Melta Gun can engage a different targets, thereby doubling the effectiveness of the Melta Guns you have deployed.

A slightly different scenario: Two squads of Chaos Space Marines approaches two enemy Rhinos. The squads are either mixed (both with Melta and Flamer) or dedicated (two Meltas or two Flamers).

Dedicated:
1. Two Melta Guns in the Melta Squad destroys a transport, the Flamer squad cleans up its passengers, if any. The second transport now has a free hand to attack and deploy its contents against the exposed units.

2. One Melta Gun in the Melta squad destroys a transport, the Flamer squad cleans up its passengers, if any. The second transport now has a free hand to attack and deploy its contents against the exposed units.

3. The Melta Gun squad does not destroy a transport. The Flamer squad has no targets. One transport may attack, one has a free hand, and both can deploy their contents against the exposed squads.

Mixed:
1. The First squad destroys a transport, the Second squad destroys a transport. The contents of both transports can act, barring pinning.

2. One squad destroys a transport, the other squad cleans up its passengers, if any. The second transport now has a free hand to attack and deploy its contents.

3. Neither squad can destroy a transport and are left exposed.

No one is arguing that the dedicated squads aren't more efficient, but their efficacy is limited. Notice that the two mixed squads are just as reliable at destroying one or two transports as the dedicated squad is at destroying one.

What does your dedicated Flamer squad do if the Melta squad is destroyed? Likewise, what does the Flamer squad do if the Melta squad is destroyed? If a mixed squad is destroyed, I still have half my anti-tank and half my anti-horde, rather than losing one or the other.

Flexibility at a unit level maximizes redundancy at the army level.

Yes, both mixed and specialized have the same number of meltas, krak grenades, and flamers, but it's how they're actually used in the game that's important.

As terminus noted, between 2x melta in one squad and krak grenades in the other, one of those two transports is going down (possibly both if the krak squad engages the other rhino). Now, with split meltas and krak, you have the potential to do the same (there are the same number of meltas and kraks after all), but with the specialized squads, you have the option of taking down a single rhino AND its cargo in a single turn, which is much less likely with the split.

With the split, as you note, both squads spend their turn just shooting at rhinos. With the specialized, you have the option of taking down two rhinos OR taking down one rhino and its passengers. Some times you will want to excersize that option, say, when you opponent only has one rhino in the area at the moment.

Likweise, if you're getting charged by a land raider would you want the opportunity of actually being able to do some damage to the guys spilling out of the wreck? With the split, you're relying on pinning, which is highly unreliable.

There are certainly situations where having a dedicated unit would be more useful over a mixed unit, but it is really more about fielding an army that can threaten (effectively) a wider number of different units. If you want any of your squads to be able to hurt anything they come up against, equip them with a melta+flamer. If you want squads that have double the chance to pen/burninate a squad go with dedicated units.

Halsfield wrote:it is really more about fielding an army that can threaten (effectively) a wider number of different units.

Exactly, EFFECTIVELY. It doesn't matter how wide a number of different units a squad can threaten if it can't threaten any of them effectively.

Does a single meltagun shot sound like something that is absolutely going to make it dead every time? Is that flamer going to be effective at all if the meltagun was used to shoot at a vehicle?

You can't let the fear of improper movement or deployment creating the desire for units to be catch-all impede the ability of the unit to be effective.