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Hello Dakka, I've been considering the inclusion of some SWS in my Guard army and wanted to share my thoughts and opinions on, what I see as the most effective configurations, and also those that you might want to avoid.

When assessing the SWS entry in the Codex the first thing that sprung to my mind was just how fragile this unit is. Numbering a mere 6 Guardsmen strong and lacking a Sergeant these guys are on par with HWS in the fragility stakes. The second thing I noticed was that 50% of the unit is wielding special weapons, which is superb for taking advantage of the cheap weaponry available to Guard. The 'big three' that I can see being used most often are the flamer, meltagun and grenade launcher.

A lot of you may question why I ommited sniper rifles and plasma guns. My reasoning is thus; snipers are very below-par this edition, and a BS3 Guardsmen simply will not hit often enough to make the most of the rather expensive plasma gun (a full squad runs just under 100pts!).

So, the flamer. Obviously it's use is as a very close range horde-killer. Able to throw down a rather large number of hits that has the potential to serverely test even MEQ armour (multiplying all hits by x3 leads to a LOT of hits). Cheap. This weapon completely negates the average BS of a Guardsman and can be fired before charging the survivors. I can envision this unit being used as an objective-clearer; burning the occupying enemy off of the cover before charging in to contest/finish off the survivors. Due to the incredibly short range of this gun, giving the squad a transport will ensure they reach the enemy's lines relatively intact.

The grenade launcher. A versatile weapon with the option of either a blast lasgun, or a mid-S single shot. Cheap. I could imagine this configuaration roaming just ahead of a gunline; peppering the approaching foe with blasts or shooting lightly armoured transports and other vehicles with krak grenades. A solid option for the SWS as it grants the longest range and the greatest versatility, allowing your SWS to adapt to the ever changing battlefield situation.

Finally we have the meltagun. The merits of this weapon has been discussed to death, so I won't waste your time re-explaining it here. The ability to take 3 at a very reasonable cost cannot be stated enough. However, much like the flamer, the meltagun SWS has an exceptionally short effective range, and will need to do considerable maouevering before it can bring its weaponry to bear. I would strongly recommend giving them a transport so that you can get the most use out of them at the earliest opportunity.

SWS, as I see them, are fundamentally suicide squads. They simply do not have the staying power to withstand any amount of punishment, and when they do take casualties, they quickly begin to eat into their special weapon reservoir. As a rule, I would equip them as cheaply as possible so that when they do ultimately perish, their loss isn't felt that keenly. One major caveat with the SWS is their rather short effective range. Bar the GL, they have to be practically on top of the enemy to make the most from their guns, and as stated previously, any retaliation will be felt quite quickly. A transport is almost a neccessity when including an SWS as they simply will not get into range prior to being shot to pieces without one.

A special mention has to go out to the most pricy of upgrades: the demo charge. This piece of kit is great fun, and a real shock to your opponent when you get it off properly. At twice the cost of a meltagun I would use it very sparingly and even then only on a flamer SWS, as the demo charge perfectly slots into the anti-infantry bracket.

So, those are my musings. I still feel the SWS are a valid option, as they put a significant number of special weapons on the table. Their inherent fragility, however, coupled with how close two out of the three selections need to be, makes me reconsider if they are worth taking...

What do you think Dakka?

L. Wrex

Most people will say that they are useless as there are only 6 of them and will die fast. I know they will die fast, but will still be of some use. I'd say not to do meltas as the bs is 3 and not 4. I'd do flamers myself. Or I should say I plan on using 3 when I get a few more models to make my guard army fit the current codex. I haven't thought much about GLs, but they might be good too. I'd say not plasma or snipers for the bs 3 and armor 5+ to not often make the over heat checks. The whole point to them though is that if the enemy does target them then the rest of your army will get in some blows. If they don't target them then they will be able to get in a lot of kills. I plan on including al rahem to let my platoon outflank and then put in some flamers to close the range quickly. That way they can't be ignored until they get into range and then get shot. They should at least get in one attack before going down in a blaze of glory.

Eh, I'm not sure. One big problem is that a platoon already includes a PCS, which can do the same job a bit cheaper/better. So unless you want a really high ratio of small squads to big blobs (which I think is a bad idea) the SWS is redundant.

The one thing they do have that PCS don't is demo charges. Arm them with one or more of those babies, and use them in a valkyrie (obviously they need transport with this set-up, or they absolutely will get shot before getting into range)

I'm a big fan of the 3 flamer SWS. Against mech I just park them in a vendetta to make it scoring. Against hordes I hide it in a infantry blob so they can walk forward and roast before they get eaten.

I'm actually a SWS fan. I like 2 melta and 1 democharge or 2 flamer 1 democharge. That being said I also use them embarked on a valk/vendetta that outflanks. And if you consider that you only roll once for platoon reserve rolls, having 2 special weapons squad and a pcs from the same platoon come in all on the same turn embarked on different valks is pretty effective.

I use them a lot....but always mounted..either in a skimmer, or they hitch a ride in chimera borrowed from an infantry squad from the same platoon...my favorite configurations are..3 flamers (always in a vendetta), or 2 flamers and a demo charge (also in the vendetta), or 3 meltaguns (usually chimera borne, or in a valkyrie)...

In essence, by using them I get more weapons in more units than a single veteran squad, which compensates for the lower BS...

If they die, they die...and it hurts less versus the loss of a vet squad...

I also like SWSs.

As to their fragility, if you want a squad that puts out a good amount of firepower AND is very durable, go play space marines and field terminators. You can't make the guard more durable, but you can take advantage of their bargain-basement price to bring many of them (plus, if they DON'T take casualties, you get the advantage of having lots more guns). Yes, a single squad of 6 guardsmen will die pretty fast, and if you were relying on just that one squad, you'll probably be poorly off, but if you bring three of them, it's going to be much harder to take absolutely everything down before at least one of those special weapons reaches its target.

As well, think about it in the larget scope this way: if you're willing to spend 100 points on 10 dudes with 3 meltaguns (veterans), why not pay 130 points for 12 dudes with 6 meltaguns (2x SWS)?

As for the weapons, I think that SWSs are really good at bringing out the particular strengths and weaknesses of the weapons themselves (as you have a lot of them concentrated in one spot). Personally, I take lots of melta SWSs, and I could easily see demo charges (if I were outflanking and not taking artillery), or flamers (if I wasn't already bringing so dang many lasguns).

With regards to the OP, I wouldn't discount plasma SWSs quite so fast. Yeah, they're more expensive than a flamer SWS for no more durability, but the firepower they put out is intense. I mean, two SWSs cost the same as a tac squad, but they can kill a half a tac squad a turn in good circumstances, and, more importantly, they can take down things like MCs and other single-model nasties like rune priests in very short order. You know that your opponent would think twice about charging his demon prince into a part of your line that contained 6 plasma guns right next to a source of "bring it down". All the better that it's only 160 points.

And as for grenade launchers, well, the whole point is that they're blast lasguns. You know what else puts out a lot of lasgun hits? PISs. It seems like kind of a waste of an SWS (not to mention the points) just to be able to copy what the other squads in the platoon are doing already, but with worse durability.

In any case, I really like them because they're a unit that is simultaneously deadly and expendable. The get to do death-star-esque damage when you move them properly, without having the death-star-esque liability of losing a single unit sinking your entire strategy.

Ailaros wrote:

As well, think about it in the larget scope this way: if you're willing to spend 100 points on 10 dudes with 3 meltaguns (veterans), why not pay 130 points for 12 dudes with 6 meltaguns (2x SWS)?

Nahhh, I'd rather spend 70 points for 5 guys with 4 meltas that can have their own dedicated transport, the platoon Command Squad. Or 140 points for 10 guys with 8 meltas. I'm already running the two blobbed platoons, so I might as well make the PCS useful. The only reason I can see to take the SWS is the democharge, and without a decent means of delivering the unit, ie that 100 point Fast skimmer, the utility of the demo dops drastically.

I wasn't saying that CCS or PCS is BAD in in way. More that SWS let a platoon field multiple "PCS" squads instead of just the one.

Ringarin (and to some extent Ailaros) makes the most sense to me with an idea I hadn't really thought of. Yesterday in a game I took 14 flamer hits and 3 demo charge hits from a squad of 10 vets (plus 8 heavy flamer hits) and lost 9 of 10 models in an assault squad.

That was really effective shooting, trading the ~150 point vet unit for a 235 point assault marine unit. But except for the heavy flamer hits, that same shooting/accuracy could have been brought to the table much more cheaply by a SWS than by the vet squad.

They were riding in a vendetta anyway, so it would just be a matter of trading one scoring unit in a non-dedicated transport for a different, cheaper unit in a non-dedicated transport. They were going to get wiped out the turn after leaving the transport regardless, so why not save the points and spend them elsewhere?

Ailaros wrote:As to their fragility, if you want a squad that puts out a good amount of firepower AND is very durable, go play space marines and field terminators. You can't make the guard more durable, but you can take advantage of their bargain-basement price to bring many of them

I wasn't suggesting that they be made more durable, but the tiny squad size coupled with the short range of the majority of the special weapons means they had better do a lot of damage in order to get their points back which, with a BS of 3, is 50:50 (unless aided by BiD of course.)

Ailaros wrote:if you were relying on just that one squad, you'll probably be poorly off, but if you bring three of them, it's going to be much harder to take absolutely everything down before at least one of those special weapons reaches its target.

I respectfully diagree. As I said in my OP, it is rediculously easy to kill 2 Guardsman and force a Ld check. Also, once you've lost your lasgun-wounds you eat into the effectiveness of the squad, and have to test Ld more often. In previous discussions you've always argued against spending more points to make something that isn't all that effective, effective. If you want them to do anything at all you're looking at buying them a Chimera/Valkyrie which is even MORE points sunk into those 6 Guardsmen.

Ailaros wrote:As well, think about it in the larget scope this way: if you're willing to spend 100 points on 10 dudes with 3 meltaguns (veterans), why not pay 130 points for 12 dudes with 6 meltaguns (2x SWS)?

BS4 is the main reason, extra ablative wounds is a second, and a higher Ld is a third. Not only that, but you're spending more points on those SWS than you are the Vets.

Ailaros wrote:With regards to the OP, I wouldn't discount plasma SWSs quite so fast. Yeah, they're more expensive than a flamer SWS for no more durability, but the firepower they put out is intense. I mean, two SWSs cost the same as a tac squad, but they can kill a half a tac squad a turn in good circumstances and, more importantly, they can take down things like MCs and other single-model nasties like rune priests in very short order. You know that your opponent would think twice about charging his demon prince into a part of your line that contained 6 plasma guns right next to a source of "bring it down". All the better that it's only 160 points.

Short of BiD, those Guardsmen will need to roll some really awesome dice. Any overheats severely affects that damage output as well, as you can practically write them off as dead, and one plasma gun is nowhere near as scary as three. You need to ask whether you'll see a return on those 160 points, with plasma guns I feel you're simply not getting that return in the one (two if you're very lucky) turn of shooting before they get munched.

Ailaros wrote:And as for grenade launchers, well, the whole point is that they're blast lasguns.

Not really. GLs grant you the option of a S6 shot. On its own not a big deal but if, to take your previous example, you have three squads of them, that's 9 S6 shots being pumped out a turn. You've got some pretty good odds of damaging light vehicles with that, and they are also the cheapest SWS you can get. GLs grant you the versatility that you need on a changing battlefield environment (I'm getting deja-vu from a previous discussion about Guard and versatility )

L. Wrex

P.S. On some of those responses I'm purposefully playing Devil's Advocate in order to stimulate discussion, I can see where you're coming from but hey, I like a good ol' debate!

I think what this thread points out is that while vets are good, spamming them is not the only option in order for the IG player to have access to SW. The PCS is definitely cheaper than the SWS, but you can only get 1 in a platoon. With the SWS, you now have 3 units in each platoon that can field multiple SW. This gives them the flexibility to field less veterans (or even no veterans, I managed to win our league without a single vet squad, but used 2 platoons instead) and use the points elsewhere.

They are indeed suicide squads, so don't put any more thought into them than that, and throw them at something juicy. 2 charges and a flamer for 80 points is nice; after they blow their load (and it doesn't scatter back on them), it's just 40 points worth of guardsmen, who cares if they die?

For any other special weapons, I look to platoon command squads.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

dumplingman wrote: And if you consider that you only roll once for platoon reserve rolls, having 2 special weapons squad and a pcs from the same platoon come in all on the same turn embarked on different valks is pretty effective.

This is not the case. While they roll collectively for reserves, there is no such rule for the outflank roll, so you roll on a per-unit basis. Of course, with an Astropath, you have an 89% chance of coming on the side you want, but still, something to keep in mind.