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My friend and I aren't sure about this. If a weapon (that doesn't require line of sight) can't see the enemy, do they get a cover save?

Yes, they get a cover save, unless the weapon in question also has special rules for determining coversaves, in which case the rules stated in the weapons description apply. Which weapon are we talking about here?

Leman Russ Battle Cannon, and a Demolisher cannon. Both those do not ignore cover saves (I'm pretty sure).

I honestly think that's kind of stupid, in my opinion. A vehicle that doesn't require line of sight can obviously shoot over cover, and a vehicle that can shoot over cover would obviously remove any advantages from being in cover (unless there's like, a roof above you). Oh well, though.


EDIT: Wait... wait... wait. I think we've been doing this wrong. Ordnance weapons require line of sight, only barrage weapons do not require line of sight. I think. Is that right?

I just saw your edit. Yes, that is right, Ordnance weapons do require LoS.

The blast starts in the center of the template, so if there's a terrain piece between your models and the hole in the template after scatter, you get a save. If the center of it is over your unit after scatter, your pretty screwed...

Inquisitor Lord Bane wrote:The blast starts in the center of the template, so if there's a terrain piece between your models and the hole in the template after scatter, you get a save. If the center of it is over your unit after scatter, your pretty screwed...

No no, that's also the rules for BARRAGE weapons. Battlecannons & demolisher cannons, being Ordnance weapons just calculates cover in the same way normal weapons do, from the point of view of the firing weapon.

Wait, wait, guys. I'm confused. On page 80 of my Codex, it says that the Demolisher cannon is simply "Ordnance 1'. However, on page 144 (the weapons summary) it lists the Demolisher cannon as "Ordnance 1, Barrage". So is it barrage or not?????

which codex?

If the weapon description and the summary contradicts each other GW has said to ignore the summary. And no, it is not a barrage weapon.

I am sure he is talking about Nids.

Either the doom of M. or Guards

BobTheChainsaw wrote:Wait, wait, guys. I'm confused. On page 80 of my Codex, it says that the Demolisher cannon is simply "Ordnance 1'. However, on page 144 (the weapons summary) it lists the Demolisher cannon as "Ordnance 1, Barrage". So is it barrage or not?????

That would be Codex: Space Marines.

It's been errata'd in the GW FAQ.

Barrage grants cover saves if the unit is in AREA TERRAIN.
It ignores INTERVENING cover elements (units/obstacles between the firer and target).

If you were in ruins or woods, then yes, a cover save applies (if the ruins were agreed to be area terrain).

chromedog wrote:Barrage grants cover saves if the unit is in AREA TERRAIN.
It ignores INTERVENING cover elements (units/obstacles between the firer and target).

If you were in ruins or woods, then yes, a cover save applies (if the ruins were agreed to be area terrain).

Not entirely true.

Instead of working out cov er from the firing model, you work out cover from the centre of the blast. So if the blast hole is the other side of a low wall from your unit you are likely to get a cover save, despite not being in area terrain.

True, but he did say "between the firer and target", not "Between the Center of the Blast and the target".

The first sentence implies only area terrain would grant a sve....

Ordnance works the same way as every other gun in terms of cover saves, unless it says "ignores cover" or something similar in the description. Barrage lobs shells over intervening terrain but as a result you dont get to reduce the scatter using you BS.

One thing to remember (i think this is right). If it is an Ordnance, barrge you can choose to fire directly (LOS) or indirectly (No LOS, no scatter reduction, cover save from impact point).

Thinking about the cover saves logically. A unit of marines is in cover behind a wall/building whatever. A Barrage weapons lobs a shell towards them. The shell land on the near side fot he wall (so from the guns perspective it goes SHELL-WALL-TARGET - they geta cover save. If the shell scatters over the wall and lands behid them it goes WALL-TARGET-SHELL. there fore they dont get a cover because there is nothgin protectign them from the big explosion.

Just to nitpick, you can fire Barrage and still get the Ballistic Skill subtraction, and that is when the Unit is also in LoS to the model firing the barrage weapon.

Yes, there are essentially 3 "modes" of fire for a Ordnance barrage weapon:

1) In LOS "direct" fire - cover worked out as normal, BS reduction to scatter
2) In LOS "barrage" fire - cover worked out from centre of blast, BS reduction to scatter
3) Out of LOS "barrage" - as 2, but no reduction in scatter from BS.

Pretty much, and a difference between normal and Ordnance Barrage is that normal Barrage only has the options of 2 and 3, it cannot pick option 1.

It's why i want Bassies to eb legal for my IW army.