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This topic is not a rant. Honest!

So there are many varieties of Space Marines, each with a different dex. Not a bad way to get some extra variety into the game! I can't help but notice, though, that there's only 1 Ork Codex, only 1 Cron codex, 1 Eldar Codex, etc. Why isn't the extra variety mimicked across the other races? It seems like a no-brainer to get more variety into the game without the need to add a lot of new models.

Orks used to have different Clans that all played differently - so my instinct says that GW tried this idea in the past. Somehow, it didn't take off - is that why we have the current situation?

Why does it work for Marines but not for other races?

Your thoughts - this is a puzzle I've been trying to work out for myself for quite some time. The game and all the races seem fine to me as-is, but even so, this has simply puzzled me often enough that I just really want to see what others think.

For Orks you can make most of the clans out of the one codex, and necrons don't really have a lot of different flavor. So having more than one codex for them is almost redundant. Also, of eldar I think the craft worlds are in the codex rules but I don't play them so I am just guesting there.

Orks are mold. Not a whole lot you can do with mold.

Its just sales.. Space marines sell the best by a mile.. Not by a little a mile. If orks sold on equal terms I guarantee they would get far more support.

One reason is obvious, sales.

The other is flexibility. Space marines are a blank slate that they can put any theme onto. Vampires, Vikings, Siege Dudes, Robot Dudes, Mongols, Crusaders, anything. It's a bit harder to do that with any other army besides Imperial guard, and even they aren't as flexible.

Where the hell do you get "12 Kinds of Space Marines" From?

The Current Space Marine Codexes are:
Space Marines
Blood Angels
Dark Angels
Space Wolves
Black Templars

you forgot Daemonhunters. Regardless of the fact that it is currently off the GW website. Then there are ~200 billion chapters.

red orks
pink orks
green orks

do we need anything else?

I agree that you can play any of the klans and also any of the craftworlds, however it seems to me that they have made a mistake by watering down the various flavors that they started doing in 4th edition. 3rd edition's craftworld eldar was great, and I wish they would try to bring that back with the next codex. I also liked the way chaos had the many distinct ways to play them. I don't think the orks have been all that effected because the new book really allows you to do so many things.

GG

This sounds awesome! I think that it would be cool if they came up with separate 'dexes for Catachans also, since their models don't really reflect a 5+ save and most of the stuff in the IG codex don't really seem like the kind of stuff they'd be in to.

I don't disagree that the Orks have a really SWEET deal these days - and of course, I can make most any army I want with the current Dex. Just saying it surprises me that GW is milking as many armies as possible from Space Marines but seems not to be taking advantage of the chance to do so for other armies.

Some would say what else can you do? The choices would be endless.

Chaos Orks (paint faces red)
Mutant Orks (put all those extra arms/heads to use)
Ork/Nid Hybrids (that'd be a cool army list)

Anyway, each could have its own dex and play VERY differently from the current dex.

If you play other alien races, you could probably think of examples for your preferred race, too.

In the future, there might be only 1 Space Marines dex and then you'd paint 'em any way you want yet use the exact same rules. And yet I doubt it. I mean, it works so well to have multiple playable chapters!

It could also work for Orks, Eldar, Crons, Nids, you name it.

daedalus wrote:This sounds awesome! I think that it would be cool if they came up with separate 'dexes for Catachans also, since their models don't really reflect a 5+ save and most of the stuff in the IG codex don't really seem like the kind of stuff they'd be in to.

What?

Catachans have ALWAYS had a 5+ save. Even the 3rd ed codex had them at a 5+ save.

As it is, the Current codex can replicate Catachans 110% accurately. Just because you have the option to take Leman Russ, you don't have to. Take Scout Sentinels and Veteran Squads instead.

Gwar! wrote:

daedalus wrote:This sounds awesome! I think that it would be cool if they came up with separate 'dexes for Catachans also, since their models don't really reflect a 5+ save and most of the stuff in the IG codex don't really seem like the kind of stuff they'd be in to.

What?

Catachans have ALWAYS had a 5+ save. Even the 3rd ed codex had them at a 5+ save.

As it is, the Current codex can replicate Catachans 110% accurately. Just because you have the option to take Leman Russ, you don't have to. Take Scout Sentinels and Veteran Squads instead.

Well, if you took the "jungle fighters" doctrine in the old Guard codex they could have a 6+ save and shoot through forests better. Wowee zoweee.

I miss the Giant Chainsaw option on Sentinels.

Shaman wrote:Its just sales.. Space marines sell the best by a mile.. Not by a little a mile. If orks sold on equal terms I guarantee they would get far more support.

This is called circular logic. Marines get all the support because they sell the best. Marines sell the best because... they get the most support.

If there were six (and I include Chaos Space Marines as just another Space Marine variant, as most of the real chaos stuff was moved out) different ork codexes, and a new ork codex release between every other race's releases, then orks would sell the best.

The answer is quite simple... Book Size.

Break the Orks down to their clans, break the Eldar into their craft-worlds and you end up with a bunch of tiny books that don't have much to offer and will be painfully redundant.

Compile all of the Space Marine chapters into a single book and now you end up with a tome larger than the hardcover rule book and costs $65.00.

The reason Space Marines have so many more options for Codices is because the entire story of 40k is the story of the Space Marines. The game boils down to the Imperium vs. Everyone Else. SM and IG are the imperium and almost of the stories revolve around them.

Space Marine vs. Space Marine
Space Marine vs. Eldar
Space Marine vs. Ork
Space Marine vs. Chaos Space Marine
Space Marine vs. Tyranid
Space Marine vs. Tau
Space Marine vs. Necron

These are all common enemies who fight very bitter battles. You don't have a lot of the following background stories:

Chaos Daemons vs. Tyranids
Necrons vs. Dark Eldar
Orks vs. Chaos Space Marines

Those stories aren't interesting. It's a bunch of evil people fighting evil people. Woo evil. People are hooked on the Good vs. Evil story. People are bound to choose one side or the other (usually Good).

Good Armies in 40k:
Eldar
Space Marines
Imperial Guard

Evil Armies in 40k:
Orks
Dark Eldar
Chaos SM
Chaos Daemons
Necrons
Tyranids
Tau

The options for Good (which is always more popular than Evil) are much narrower than the options for Evil. To balance it out, GW has different versions of Marines. If you add the 5 more varieties (Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Black Templars, Witch Hunters) you go from 3-on-7 to 8-on-7. Balanced. Yay.

Alamoth wrote:The reason Space Marines have so many more options for Codices is because the entire story of 40k is the story of the Space Marines.

Ha! From where I am sitting, the entire story of 40k is the story of the Orks and their glorious conquest of the galaxy!!!

But your point is well taken. I guess everyone wants to be humans - ie, Earth's Staunch Defenders. I guess I can see that!

Brother SRM wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

daedalus wrote:This sounds awesome! I think that it would be cool if they came up with separate 'dexes for Catachans also, since their models don't really reflect a 5+ save and most of the stuff in the IG codex don't really seem like the kind of stuff they'd be in to.

What?

Catachans have ALWAYS had a 5+ save. Even the 3rd ed codex had them at a 5+ save.

As it is, the Current codex can replicate Catachans 110% accurately. Just because you have the option to take Leman Russ, you don't have to. Take Scout Sentinels and Veteran Squads instead.

Well, if you took the "jungle fighters" doctrine in the old Guard codex they could have a 6+ save and shoot through forests better. Wowee zoweee.

Eh, that's what I was thinking of. I never had access to the Catachan Codex and assumed they were 6+ also. Seriously, how DOES a bandoleer and a dog tag give you a 5+ armor save?

/\ Faith in the God-Emperor of course!

Redbeard that may be the case..

But I'd bet just vanilla space marines have outsold orks..

Like when the new marine codex came out I bet it did better numbers then when the ork codex came out..

I dont think 6 ork codexes could even remotely compare to current marine sales if they were made.. GW would just lose money.

Redbeard wrote:

Shaman wrote:Its just sales.. Space marines sell the best by a mile.. Not by a little a mile. If orks sold on equal terms I guarantee they would get far more support.

This is called circular logic. Marines get all the support because they sell the best. Marines sell the best because... they get the most support.

If there were six (and I include Chaos Space Marines as just another Space Marine variant, as most of the real chaos stuff was moved out) different ork codexes, and a new ork codex release between every other race's releases, then orks would sell the best.

Orks used to have clans, didn't they? And they dropped them, presumably because Space Marines outsold them. Varieties of space marines were apparently more profitable than varieties of Orks. Nothing circular there.

Alamoth wrote:Those stories aren't interesting. It's a bunch of evil people fighting evil people. Woo evil. People are hooked on the Good vs. Evil story. People are bound to choose one side or the other (usually Good).

Good Armies in 40k:
Eldar
Space Marines
Imperial Guard

Evil Armies in 40k:
Orks
Dark Eldar
Chaos SM
Chaos Daemons
Necrons
Tyranids
Tau

Really? Huh. Sorry, Imperial forces are, at best, a not-all-that-dark shade of gray. Same with Eldar and Tau.

I realize people think that humans are default good guys... but we're pretty nasty critters in the 40K universe. The only sentient creatures I know of in the 40K universe who aren't vile scumbags are rank-and-file guardsmen or Eldar guardians, and both of those are essentially suckers. Everybody else is bloodthirsty and/or willing to sacrifice the entire rest of the galaxy for their own ends. Also: "Evil will always win, because Good is dumb."

BTW, orks still have clans; they just don't mean much, and in order to get a halfway-decent army you're almost required to have units that would be from different clans. They're sadly even less important than which chaos god a chaos worshipper or daemon follows.

Davel beat me to it. ^

Redbeard wrote:This is called circular logic. Marines get all the support because they sell the best. Marines sell the best because... they get the most support.

If there were six (and I include Chaos Space Marines as just another Space Marine variant, as most of the real chaos stuff was moved out) different ork codexes, and a new ork codex release between every other race's releases, then orks would sell the best.

Marines sell the best because genetically engineered super humans in power armour have a strong appeal, while I happen to think barbarian techno-savvy fungus is awesome, I accept that the base appeal just isn't there. While the extra support given to marines is no doubt a factor in their popularity, it's putting the cart well before the horns to think it is the reason for their popularity.




The reason marines have so much variety is because they represent about half the armies out there. Breaking that block up into several unique types means there's a lot more variety out there. Making three unique types of ork amies would achieve very little in comparison, and likely just reduce the flexibility available to current ork players.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mad Rabbit wrote:Orks used to have clans, didn't they? And they dropped them, presumably because Space Marines outsold them. Varieties of space marines were apparently more profitable than varieties of Orks. Nothing circular there.

It was never like the current Space Marine system. Marines have had seperate codices for the most famous chapters for a long time now, and the orks have never had a Bad Moon codex or a Goff codex.

In second ed the orks had one codex and it listed different troop types available - you could pick a blood axe unit or a snakebite unit or whatever. There were no meaningful differences in the abilities of troops and the only reason to pick one troop over another was the minor variations in available wargear. It was pretty much a waste of time, and could have been much better represented with a single boyz option with all options available (then with a modelling suggesting Goffs tend to use this and that, Evil Sunz tend to use...)

In third ed the orks were able to access all manner of sub-lists, so you could select snakebites and access boarboyz but not be able to take a lot of technology options. This was part of a trend GW had in place over the whole line, releasing loads and loads of sub-lists to make up for the lack of variety in most basic codices, and to introduce something to spice up what was a very dull tactical ruleset. It produced one-dimensional lists and boring games, and I for one don't miss it at all.

I guess at the end of the day I don't care. Because I love the Ork Dex just the way it is. But it does make me wonder. And for some of the other (nonhuman) races, I always wondered if it could fly.

Redbeard wrote:

Shaman wrote:Its just sales.. Space marines sell the best by a mile.. Not by a little a mile. If orks sold on equal terms I guarantee they would get far more support.

This is called circular logic. Marines get all the support because they sell the best. Marines sell the best because... they get the most support.

If there were six (and I include Chaos Space Marines as just another Space Marine variant, as most of the real chaos stuff was moved out) different ork codexes, and a new ork codex release between every other race's releases, then orks would sell the best.

+1

GW COULD write clan specific ork dexes (for example) and have special rule sand characters and wargear for them same as they do for marines but they CHOOSE not to.

Of course the problem is instead of fleshing out the stuff that has filled the fluff for years into distinct and viable armies they insist on milking more money out of marines despite having run out of quality ideas a while ago and thus we end up with the stupidity that is Deepstriking land raiders and marines riding wolves, etc., etc.

I think it is a shame that there is not more variety in the 'dexes via Special Characters, same as in the Vanilla Marine book does with Vulkan, Kor'Sarro Khan, etc, and even, to a very small degree, the BA book with Seth whojamicallit.

I would very much like to see a Special Character for each of the Ork Clans who changes the army is some subtle way. For example;
- Goffs get a better Waaargh, ie, they keep Ghazghkull.
- An Evil Sunz character who gives you Red Paint Jobs, or Fast vehicles, or some sort of Vehicular Waaargh,
- a Death Skullz character who gives access to greater numbers of Lootas, or a single round of extra-shootiness as they burn off excess ammo,
- Bad Moonz character who gives you access to an extra Weirdboy or Battlewagons as dedicated transports for Boyz,
- A character who leads a unit Cyboarz as an upgrade for Nob Bikers in Snakebitez lists,
- Blood Axes get to outflank with some of their Boyz, if they take that character (Well, Snikrot, I guess)
- Bikers as troops in Kults of Speed.

As I have posted before, for Eldar I would like to see characters who give;
- Furious charge for (Ulthwe) Guardians
- Wraithguard as troops (for Iyanden)
- Rangers upgradeable to Pathfinders (for Alaitoc)
- Furious Charge for (Saim Hann) Jet Bikes
- Elite Aspect Warriors as Troops (for Biel-Tan)
- Stubborn Altansar Guardians

I expect you could do the same for different Tau factions, different Hive Fleets, different Necron Tombs, Different Chaos Space Marine Legions, etc...

Really, it is not much to expect.

As it stands, there is more variety in the Vanilla SM Codex than for several Xenos 'dexes combined, and Marines still get even more 'dexes!

CT GAMER wrote:

Redbeard wrote:

Shaman wrote:Its just sales.. Space marines sell the best by a mile.. Not by a little a mile. If orks sold on equal terms I guarantee they would get far more support.

This is called circular logic. Marines get all the support because they sell the best. Marines sell the best because... they get the most support.

If there were six (and I include Chaos Space Marines as just another Space Marine variant, as most of the real chaos stuff was moved out) different ork codexes, and a new ork codex release between every other race's releases, then orks would sell the best.

+1

GW COULD write clan specific ork dexes (for example) and have special rule sand characters and wargear for them same as they do for marines but they CHOOSE not to.

Of course the problem is instead of fleshing out the stuff that has filled the fluff for years into distinct and viable armies they insist on milking more money out of marines despite having run out of quality ideas a while ago and thus we end up with the stupidity that is Deepstriking land raiders and marines riding wolves, etc., etc.

As pointed out before, they already tried it, didn't sell well, thus it hit the bin. In the end GW is still a company and profit is what drives any company.

Brother Ramses wrote:Orks are mold. Not a whole lot you can do with mold.

Not so!

An Ork is the life and soul of the party, because he is a fungi!!