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...for the 'Ard Boyz

HQ
Farseer
Fortune, RoWarding, RoWitnessing
Yriel
9 Warlocks
4 Singing Spears, 2 Embolden, 2 Enhance
Wave Serpent
TL-ShuriCannon, SS

Elite
5 Fire Dragons
Wave Serpent
TL-ShuriCannon, SS

5 Fire Dragons
Wave Serpent
TL-ShuriCannon, SS

Troops
5 Dire Avengers
Wave Serpent
TL-Brightlance, SS

5 Dire Avengers
Wave Serpent
TL-Brightlance, SS

5 Dire Avengers
Wave Serpent
TL-Brightlance, SS

5 Dire Avengers

Fast Attack
3 Vypers
Scat Laser/ShuriCannon
(Forgot them the first time)

Heavy Support
3 Warwalkers
2 Scatter Lasers

3 Warwalkers
2 Scatter Lasers

Falcon
Holo-Fields, Scatter Laser, ShuriCannon, SS

Pretty min/maxed, though anyone care to make any suggestions/improvements/guesses on how it will fair?

Fixed the list

It'll prob fail pretty hard.

Eldrad/Yriel, powerful but slow as hill. You'll get there,get out, eat something(s) then chase things the rest of the game.

Fire Dragons: Standard

3 DA bladestorm, you'll have no doom/guide for these so they'll end up rather fail.

Prisms will get blow out of the water in about 2.5 seconds without holos at 2.5k

Falcon with Scatter Laser and S Cannon? So your planning to be moving 6" with enemies 24" away while you have that much firepower and only 5 DA onboard? Tell me how that goes.


Sorry if this came off harsh, in a cynical mood right now so don't take it offensively

Not at all... it just seemed better than my usual list for some reason... silly me. Let me put up my normal list.

If you take out the council,add some avengers,take 3 prisms,and have one more squad of dragons...It would probably be better

I will never take prisms over walkers, maybe in 1,000-600 points games, but I have a disdain for the fire prisms, war walkers have always outclassed them in my case.

Also, avengers are way too squishy compared to the council, the council gives me something to play around you know?

Also, 3 squads of dragons seem a little... not worth it.

2 has always been the golden number for me, I tried three once, because I knew he was going to spam land raiders... and they just seemed like the banshees would have been a better choice.

Nasty list, you should wallop most people with that.

One question though, why the anti infantry weapons on the fire dragon WS's? It seems counter productive to equip them that way, but perhaps you have had success with it? I always aim to give the transport similar equipment to the squad inside to compliment their load out.

The only thing you have to worry about would be some IG builds, or a really shooty list that was able to alpha strike you (assuming you didn't reserve up, of course).

But on the whole, I like that list a lot. Your HQ combo is a beast, I love Yriel with Seer council and Farseer, they can put the arse kicking on nearly any unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, why the Vypers? I have terrible luck with them, they always fail to do anything for me. How do you run them that they earn a place in your list?

Eh, still not a huge fan. Brightlances have always been overrated in my book, lots of points that are only really good vs mass AV 14s on front and side. You have fire dragons for popping those.

Time and time again fate has reminded me that 5 DA in a serpent is a massive glass cannon. Serpents are tough, but 5 DA inside leaves you with nothing when they crack.


Any particular reason for the Falcon setup? Seem counter intuitive to me.

Why the underslugs on the Vypers? Do you truly foresee going within 24" at a 6" pace enough to make the 10 pts worth it? Also they are BS3 so is 1.5 hits of S6 worth the risk?

Reecius wrote:Nasty list, you should wallop most people with that.

One question though, why the anti infantry weapons on the fire dragon WS's? It seems counter productive to equip them that way, but perhaps you have had success with it? I always aim to give the transport similar equipment to the squad inside to compliment their load out.

Anti tank unit with Antitank gun transport is putting all your eggs in one basket. If you have you anti tank transport on the anti infantry unit then the priorities get split on which to take down first.

Good point, that definitely makes sense.

And, the transport can always fire at a different target than its squad, obviously.

Blue Dagger cleared that one part up... as for the rest of it:

@BlueDagger
Falcon-Str6/8 gun boat
Has helped loads against
MC's
Light Transports
Small units of nasties (Archon with small retinue, command squad, wyches...)

Vypers...
Really just needed a place to fit 'em
'Ard Boyz your opponent got a point if you were missing a FOC slot unit or whatever last two years.
I will take off the underslugs I guess, though for what in their stead?

5-man (Discount DAVU's)
Always serve me well, don't get shot at until turn 4-5 when it is too late
Only in 3 games, have all my DA-serpents been shot down, and I have played quite a few.

Brightlances
Help against vindicators/hammer heads/leman russes which I expect to face ALOT
Best place for brightlances because they are twin-linked

@Reecius

Thanks,
I know mech IG will be my bane, they always are ='/

Vypers, usually push them up a flank behind the serpent, pick off the troops and what not...

Sometimes, they go and solo artillery in back field if it is lightly/not supported.

Thank you both for your input, 30 points should be easy to spend right?

I have also thought about putting guardians instead of 5 DA's in two of the serpents, more wounds and they are still a troop.

Yeah, I agree. Storm Guardians with dual flamer or melta is a great buy. Pricier though, but more endurance and application.

You may want to try some spiders in place of the Vypers. I love them, although they get a lot of hate on the net. I also like to use Shinning spears as tank hunters, hitting rear armor with str 6 and 8 attacks is nothing to sneeze at, although they too get a lot of net hate.

I just get NO utility out of my Vypers, but perhaps I am just not using them correctly.

As for B.Lances, I think they are essential to a good Eldar list. Everyone plays differently, but I never leave home without at least 3 of them.

The bright lances definitely outshine the mon-keighs primitive guns.

Although, as far as vypers go, I just make opponents not want to shoot them due to juicier targets/cover save.

They don't cause as much havoc as I would hope, though they have done better than my other FA...

I have never tried shining spears, I will have to give them a go soon.

The expensive Seer council will not cut it. Even with fortune they are as sturdy as a regular MEQ. Also the lack of assault ramps anything CC in the eldar codex is sub par.

@tederur

First off... do you even play eldar?

Fortuned seer council- better save then MEQ's...

Also, with Yriel, they can tussle with any other close combat unit in the game. Any of 'em.

Eldar have some amazing CC units, they take a little bit more skill to use sure but... howling banshees-striking scorpions-seer council, all can take on the dedicated CC of other races, and for a lower cost to boot.

tedurur wrote:The expensive Seer council will not cut it. Even with fortune they are as sturdy as a regular MEQ. Also the lack of assault ramps anything CC in the eldar codex is sub par.

Yeah, have to agree smoking crack on that one. They are only MEQ equiv if your fortune gets psy hooded or Null Zone is in play. 4+ double invul is about a 2.5+ save and isn't bypassed by AP3... not sure how that is MEQ sturdy lol.

How are they MEQ if the Fortune gets Nullzoned? Then they have T3 4++, we are talking about walking councils here you know...

With Fortune vs str 4:
2/3 will wound and 3/4 saved = 1/6 wounds

Meq vs str 4
1/2 will wound 2/3 saved = 1/6 wounds

With fortune vs str 3
1/2 will wound 3/4 saved = 1/8 wounds

Meq vs str 3
1/3 will wound 2/3 saved = 1/9 wounds...

Yeah, Im the one smoking crack....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:@tederur

First off... do you even play eldar?

Fortuned seer council- better save then MEQ's...

Also, with Yriel, they can tussle with any other close combat unit in the game. Any of 'em.

Eldar have some amazing CC units, they take a little bit more skill to use sure but... howling banshees-striking scorpions-seer council, all can take on the dedicated CC of other races, and for a lower cost to boot.

Great, you have a 650pts point sink that can tussle with any unit...You will not get to charge many competent players death star units with it.

Yeah a Foot Council works out about as tough as MEQ, the reduced toughness counteracts the marginally better save (4+ with re-rolls is slightly higher chance of success than a straight 3+), they end up being a bit tougher because you still get saves against low AP weapons and even allowing for this MEQ can always find cover to reduce the effectiveness of low ap weapons so it isn't a huge advantage. In any case the invulnerable isn't as important because you don't really fear being shot to pieces with low AP weapons as most armies a) don't have huge number of them, or at least enough to take out the Council quickly and b) will be aiming them at tanks. What Foot Councils don't like is massed S6 shooting (causes ID to the characters) or failing that massed bolter fire, its going to kill more than a couple of Lascannon shots would.

Of course this all hinges around the fact that you get Fortune up and that is by no means a given. At 2500 most people are going to bring some kind of psychic defense (assuming they can) and considering this is a 'Ard Boyz list (and people will be expecting Dual Lash, Jaws Spam and other psychic heavy lists) I expect psychic defense to be mandatory to be competitive. You can also run into Null Zone which either counteracts Fortune or completely dooms the Council (depending on whether you actually manage to cast Fortune in the first place).

Btw adding Yriel to the unit doesn't suddenly make them able to tussle with any other unit in the game, it just lifts them to above average in damage output. Even Yriel + Eldrad in a full 10 strong council doesn't have a huge damage output, against true DeathStar units (think 10 TH/SS Terminators or a full Nob Biker unit) the best they are hoping for it to stall them for a couple of turns. Against the Terminators, assuming you charge (which is tricky when they have a ~20" charge range out of a LR and you are stuck in a Serpent without Assault Ramps), Yriel kills a couple, the Farseer + Warlocks kill another 3 or so at which point the Seer gets a bunch of TH's to the face and you lose Fortune, neutralising the unit. Even if you can win the combat wipe out the rest of the unit at some point, you lose Yriel to ID if you are stuck in combat for too long, bolters can make light work of you once you are out of the combat. Similar kind of thing is going to happen against the Nobz only worse, you do a few wounds (except they can spread the wounds around so you don't kill any) and then ID your characters the first turn, finish you off second.

For the Avenger Serpents I would take the underslung Cannon rather than Spirit Stones, they are going to be hanging back so the Stones aren't as useful as on the FD and Council Serpents (who have to move in close to drop you want to be able to run away again next turn). Adding the Cannon means they can still be useful once you lose the Bright Lances and generally helps their damage output against everything (short of AV13+).

Alright Powerguy,

10 Terminators can't fit in a land raider.

Why would I charge a unit like that with my seer council? (Without weakening it first of course.)

ShuriCannons for my dire serpents was always on my mind, however if I take out the spirit stones, if he late game stusn my vehicles I can't objective grab.

Also, the 24" is a large con for putting them on my "sniper serpents". I would much rather the stones than the shuricannon, even though the shuricannon can be useful.

@tedurer

650 points for an hit-or-miss unit? Yes. Point sink? No. Many matches have been won due to the seer council opposed to the alternatives I could have used.

Also... how will I not be able to charge death star units?

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:Alright Powerguy,

10 Terminators can't fit in a land raider.

Why would I charge a unit like that with my seer council? (Without weakening it first of course.)

ShuriCannons for my dire serpents was always on my mind, however if I take out the spirit stones, if he late game stusn my vehicles I can't objective grab.

Also, the 24" is a large con for putting them on my "sniper serpents". I would much rather the stones than the shuricannon, even though the shuricannon can be useful.

@tedurer

650 points for an hit-or-miss unit? Yes. Point sink? No. Many matches have been won due to the seer council opposed to the alternatives I could have used.

Also... how will I not be able to charge death star units?[/quote]

Its TedurUr...Anyway, In what world is 650pts for a Hit or most often miss unit not a point sink? How would you be able to charge a death star? If you park your Serpent close to my unit I simply place something infront of your one access point. If the serpent is too far away for me to do that then I simply back away and then shoot you...or failing ALL this I screen my own squad and then kill your +30pt MEQs. Simply put, with assault ramps eldar CC units could have been awesome, without they are plain meh

Truly sorry about the name thing though...

If you move back and attempt to shoot me, wouldn't that be beneficial for me, seeing as your deathstar unit is further from my main force?