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Hi everyone, I've been thinking a lot about how to improve my Eldar on the tabletop. I had a lot of success against my enemies back in the day, but since my major opponents started pulling out hard, fully-mechanised lists I feel I've dropped off a bit. My original lists had autarchs, shining spears, pathfinders and vypers (or dark reapers) alongside the wave serpents, dire avengers and fire dragons. I feel I can do better. Autarchs, especially, have always underperformed, I'm going back to farseers (don't think the idea/models are as cool, but whatchagonnado eh?) and I feel that T3 infantry, or a few very expensive jetbikes, are vulnerable with TLoS rules, and with the other half of the army being in AV12 vehicles. Here's an updated list:

Farseer: Singing Spear, Spirit Stones, Runes of Warding, ‘Doom’, ‘Guide’ – 138 Goes with DAs, put runes of warding here because its a less risky job.

Farseer: Singing Spear, Spirit Stones, ‘Guide’, ‘Fortune’ – 128 Goes with dragons, fortunes serpent en route, guides to make sure of killing some things. Both seers have singing spears because I like anti-tank, and there were 6 points spare!

8 Striking Scorpions: Exarch with Scorpion’s Claw – 155
Wave Serpent: Twin-Linked Eldar Missile Launcher, Shuriken Cannon – 130

6 Fire Dragons – 96
Wave Serpent: Twin-Linked Scatter Laser, Spirit Stones – 125

6 Fire Dragons – 96
Wave Serpent: Twin-Linked Scatter Laser, Spirit Stones – 125

10 Dire Avengers: Exarch with Dual Catapults, ‘Bladestorm’ – 152 One big bladestorm unit in case I come up against enemies it works well on. The smaller 2 units will probably sit in transports the whole game
Wave Serpent: Twin-Linked Eldar Missile Launcher, Shuriken Cannon – 130

5 Dire Avengers – 60
Wave Serpent: Twin-Linked Eldar Missile Launcher, Shuriken Cannon – 130

5 Dire Avengers – 60
Wave Serpent: Twin-Linked Eldar Missile Launcher, Shuriken Cannon – 130

Fire Prism – 115

Fire Prism – 115

Fire Prism – 115

Total: 2000 points, 17 kill points

So I'm pretty happy with this so far, I'm fielding 9 AV12 skimmers instead of my previous rather measly 4. But I have some questions, concerns and doubts:
Should I scrap 1 farseer, or replace both w/Eldrad?
Should I take a 3rd unit of fire dragons instead of scorpions? I'm eager to try the scorpions out, but dragons are just so damn good! (I admit, this would be a little boring, so I'm inclined toward the scorpions)
Should I drop the fighting DA unit down to 5 men w/no upgrades? Seems like bladestorm is inefficient against lots of armies, but it is very useful against some others.
If I do save some points, should I get holofields on the prisms, or a cheap vyper squadron?

Thanks to anyone who drops by and comments, you'd be helping out a lot.

Pretty solid list, similar to what I run at 2000pts. I don't bother with Scorpions, run Eldrad + an Autarch instead of dual Seers and 3 War Walkers with Scatter Lasers instead of the third Prism. I also run Bright Lances on all my Avengers Serpents, they are much more helpful than EML against tanks.

Not sure how its even possible for Autarch's to underperform as long as you remember that they are for support and not an out and out combat character. They are very cheap and give an incredible boost to your army, an Autarch with a Fusion Gun (maybe a power weapon if you have points spare) can tag along with the Fire Dragons for an additional shot but most importantly gives your army +1 to reserves. This means you can take 2nd turn to have the last chance for objective grabs (which Eldar armies love) but still get the first turn of effective shooting (coming in turn 2 on 3+), it can be vital against powerful shooting lists (Leafblower, SW Razorback spam etc) which would otherwise drop half your tanks in the first turn or so.

I really wouldn't bother wasting a Farseer to ride with the Fire Dragons, 99% of the time they are going to die a horrible painful death the turn after they melta that Land Raider/big nasty thing dead, T3 4+ is dead as soon as someone decides to actually shoot at them. In any case there isn't really a hell of a lot that 6 Fire Dragons can't kill, even allowing for misses and you can always use both Fire Dragon units on the same thing if its that tough (realistically if it take 12 meltaguns to kill its probably going to be worth quite a bit more than 200 pts so probably worth it). Even if the Seer doesn't get out of the Serpent you are risking him far more than you need to, because you are more at risk of losing the Serpent the Dragons just got out of (much closer to the enemy than the Avengers will be) and people will realise that taking out the Serpent will also net them your Seer as well.

Mech lists can get away without fielding Eldrad as the ability to cast from two locations with the two Seers is nice and Eldrad's combat abilities and boosted survivability isn't as helpful. Over 2000pts I would take him in any case as you have the points to play with, but at 2000 its a toss up. Eldrad essentially has the psychic output of 1.5 Seers, so I find he works perfectly in combination with an Autarch, you get the reserve bonus and don't lose too much as far as power output.

Scorpions obviously stick out the most in this list, they are your only close combat based unit and not a particularly threatening one at that (realistically they can take out most Guard/Tau/Necron squads, maybe put a dent in something a bit more capable like a Tactical Squad but will bounce off any real combat unit). Assaulting out of Serpents is tricky in the first place and after they wipe out something on the charge they end up in the open and get squashed. You can't really pull off multicharges with them either, they just don't have the damage output to pull it off against most armies. Fire Dragons are clearly superior but I agree that 3 units seems like a bit much spam at 2000pts. Considering that Scorpions are really an anti infantry unit you would probably be better off taking another Bladestorm DA squad, it squashes the same kind of things about as easily (both will make huge mess of Guard/Orks etc, can put a decent dent in MEQ but will struggle against anything tougher) but more importantly is scoring and can do all this without potentially being punched in the face in the process.

Not sure if a third Prism is really needed, you only need 2 to get the MEQ squashing pie plate (although I guess having a spare is always nice). Definitely keep them clean though, you don't need Holos. If you drop 1 you can fit War Walkers in which are definitely a better choice than Vypers (more guns ftw).

While I normally don't run any of my squads with an Exarch (Dragons don't need them and they become a tad expensive in Avenger squads) I also don't like running DAVU. Normally I try and aim for 8-10 Avengers with no Exarch for every squad, mostly because this means that once they lose their Serpent they are actually still slightly useful (5 Avengers are a walking kill point which can't hurt much). While you lack the single turn firepower without Bladestorm you actually fire more shots over two turns if you can stay safely outside the Serpent (just get back in and run if you need to), and you can do this with all your squads if you need to (rather than just the Bladestorm squads). Something to consider I guess.

I've ran a similar list many times. It's a glass cannon, once your serpents get popped your left with nothing. You'll also have a major issue with mass marines in rhinos/drop pods.

60-70 marines with this list is a nightmare because all the AT will be smart enough to target your prisms first and without those you have nothing to kill marines off with.

I don't play Eldar but my brother does and Eldrad is a biatch to play against she would probably do better than the dual seers.

Thanks for the replies everyone. Powerguy, I see your point about more DAs instead of scorpions, I may well give that a try. I disagree about the 3rd fire prism and bright lances on the serpents though - I think bright lances are only any better than EMLs against AV13-14, and not great at that - better to save points, and deploy FDs against such targets.

I could drop the seers for Eldrad, leaving me 56 points spare - I'd need to cut the scorpions down to a dire avengers unit to make enough points to fit an autarch as well. I like the idea of using reserves more, and an autarch does that, its just he doesn't add anything on the table.

Bluedagger - I know what you mean, but Eldar plasma-type weaponry is highly overpriced. I'm already taking 3 prisms, the other prime marine killers are banshees and shining spears - I've tried the later with very mixed results, and I think banshees suffer from FD syndrome - they get shot as soon as they've killed one thing. Do you have any suggestions for an eldar list that does better against massed marines? I think I've already got quite a good setup against rhinos, personally.

Don't underestimate the ability to knock out a tank without having to use your Fire Dragons to do it. If you manage to drop the Land Raider you brought the Fire Dragons to kill when it is on the other side of the table then you can actually use the Fire Dragons more effectively, you can use them a bit more carefully and kill several units rather than a single tank. Obviously EML can deal with everything up to AV12 just as well as Bright Lances, but you can use massed S6 shooting for that as well. S6 shots can't touch AV13 at all though which is fine because the Bright Lances can shoot that for you. Basically AV13-14 you can use Bright Lances and your FIre Dragons and for anything less than that you can use S6 shooting, even if its just to stall (glance = shaken at least = no shooting = another chance to try and do more damage next turn), your Bright Lances and Fire Dragons can deal with them once they are done with the tougher stuff.

On another note one of other main reasons I take Bright Lances is due to ability to ignore FNP and ignore 2+ saves (good for trying to ID that character once you shoot the unit dead around him) which probably reflects the Nurgle, Nid and soon BA players I often play against.

The only other Eldar unit which can reliably put big dents in Marine units are JetCouncils (not a huge damage output but relative to the amount it takes to kill them its massive) and Foot Councils with Yriel (pie-plate + 2+ power weapon) and Eldrad (another 2+ power weapon), both of which are very expensive, easily countered if you can shut down Fortune and don't really fit into this list very well. Honestly point for point the next best unit after these two + Banshees at taking out Marines is probably Fire Dragons, its just they are usually needed to shoot down tanks.

@ BlueDagger. Can you seriously fit 60-70 Marines and still have them all in transports (assuming they are actually loaded up to be effective of course, not 70 guys with bolters)? The ability to stay more mobile then the enemy, pick their fights and stay alive is how this list (like most Mech Eldar lists) work. In a straight out shooting match Eldar are always going to come off worse.

If those Marine are on foot they can be avoided, and if they aren't then this list is pretty well equipped to stop your Rhinos quickly. On top of that how much anti-tank firepower do you have to work with? This army doesn't have huge issues with melta, the main anti-tank weapon Marines use (back away while still shooting + Serpent Energy fields ftw, Prisms can hide using the Serpents as shield as needed) and most other Marine anti tank power is either concentrated in Devestator type squads (in which case you focus on them until they are dead) or is spread out in AV11 Razorbacks which this list can probably deal with (assuming it can get the first round of shooting hence why you take the Autarch). If you are running meltas in Drop Pods they are be avoided with Reserves. As far as I can remember I haven't played a game where I have had less than 3 mobile tanks at the end of the game and my list has 2 less AV12 tanks than this one to start with. As long as you don't run straight into the middle of the enemy its tough to actually drop that many Serpents because they can keep running away.

Unfortunately I think your list is just not effecient enough against today's tough mech lists. I think you need to look at the following changes:

Drop the scorpians - Honestly what do you expect them to do in a game. The ability to convey scout on the wave serpant is nice but frankly WQave serpant mobility is so high anyway that by turn two you can pretty much have them where they would come in anyway. They are not that great against marines and only do somewhat well against orks, bugs, and deamons. Personally, I like Banshees. Always strikes first on the turn of a charge, power weapons, and when combined with a farseers doom very potent. If you don;t like this I would go with more fire dragons then.

I used to love the fire prism. Now I just think they are over priced for what they offer. I would drop all three. For their points I would buy a seer council to ride with Eldrad. 7 of them with their own cheap wave serpant 5 destructors, 1 enhance, 1 embolden. I find this unit extremely powerful. And just about 450 points. It is over priced but just a great unit.

Drop the scatter lasers off the dragon serpants. They will generally be moving two fast to shoot or they will be shaken becuase they are carrying fire dragons. If they survive the shurican cannon does just fine at doing some damage.

Take eldrad instead of two seers. He is more effective and cheaper.

@Bounty- Actually I don't have any recommendations for anti-mass marines... I'm struggling with that right now myself :(

@Powerguy - Yes, you can fit that 60-70 marines in a list rather easily. Faced off against Spacewolves the other day that had 60 grey hunters in rhinos and drop pods with powerfist, meltas, and flamers. 2 Packs of Longfangs with missile launchers and Runepriest.

This is the third time I have faced a list similar to this and I find that I simply can not kill enough space marines and not sure what would assist.

OK, thanks for all this feedback, this is getting helpful.

Powerguy, I hear what you say about brightlances, but they're just so damn expensive! Realistically, I don't face more than 2 land raiders or such per game - and as for things like predators or battlewagons, they tend to show their side armour soon enough. I'll give the lances a go, but I think the EMLs' saving and flexibility are worth it. Its worth noting that being S8, a krak missile will still deny plague marines and such all saves - FNP on tyranid monsters could be troublesome, but realistically 3-4 lances aren't going to take down a 6-wound monster anyway.

The seer council thing - I feel it's closed off to me because 1, I don't want to convert the models/I don't think they look that cool; and 2, it does completely rely on making a psychic test for fortune - which against a psychic hood or shadows in the warp, is very risky. With fortune, it's a resilient unit. Without, they suffer from shining spear syndrome - so expensive that every failed save stings.

BrPrometheus - I think its a bit odd you say that the army won't cut it against mech lists, and then urge me to drop some anti-vehicle units! I see your point about the banshees, but ultimately the weaker save, and the fact they depend so utterly on doom, made me choose scorpions. I will try both units with proxying, and come to a decision. (Fire Dragons probably would be better than either, but hey, it is just a bit boring - I'll avoid that if I can) My plan with the scorpions isn't so much to go attack the enemy, as to sit back firing the WS guns and if an assault unit gets too close to my firepower units, the scorpions can deal with them.

Eldrad is the major change I'm considering with this list. Replacing both seers with him opens up 56 points. Should I use those points to upgrade WS guns to brightlances, or bulk up some of the infantry numbers?