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Hello. I was messing around with my csm codex, and I came up with the following spam list:

Kharn
9x berserker
-champ with power fist
-Land Raider w/Daemonic Possession

10x berserker
-champ with power fist
- Land Raider w/Daemonic Possession

10x berserker
-champ with power fist
- Land Raider w/Daemonic Possession

5x berserker (to hide and sit on an extra objective with Fearless)

1998 points, if my math is right

there are only 2 elements to the list- there's Berserkers, and Land Raiders. The Land Raiders compensate for the Berserkers only weaknesses- they need to get the charge, and they get shot up. In this list, you have strong scoring units, are immune to the anti-psyker tech that's so common these days, are very hard to Lash, and should get the charge 90% of the time and chew through anything in cc. You're also very strong in KP missions, with the entire army fearless and only 8 KP to give up, 3 of which are Raiders.

Against melta-heavy armies, you always have the option to play keep-away with the Raiders and shoot them up for a couple turns while they try to close, then assault them as soon as they're within 20".

Daemonic Possession is, I feel, a must for Chaos Land Raiders. It's kind of like a 3+ invul vs. glancing, or a 5+ invul vs. penetrating hits. The fact that the Raiders guns are Twin-Linked make the BS hit not too bad.

What are counters to this? I could see mass Eldar skimmers being an irritating game of cat-and-mouse. What else? I feel like the list is both an annoying spam list and very strong. Take it apart for me.

I would suggest more rhinos than raiders - yes, you cant move and assault out of them, but can get MORE bezerkers for the points saving, and this allows you to pincer. Its less eggs in one basket situation as well.

Its what I run and itsd fairly effective. 3 troops at 1500 poiints with room for a khorne DP etc.

You're going to have trouble holding objectives. Yes you can take them but holding them might be a problem. You can hole up in the LR's but then you aren't killing your enemy.

Also you rely entirely too much on your land raiders. They are AV 14 but there are a lot of lists out there that can deal with that. If your opponent just concentrates his AT fire on one LR until it's dead he can effectively neutralize an entire 1/3 of your army per turn.

This isn't a list your opponent can shoot at everything but with 4 units on the board (to shoot at) he doesn't have to. That and should your zerkers get on an objective w/o a LR any smart opponent will sit 13" away & shoot you, if you want to kill him you have to get off the objective.

Aren't' you much more likely to lose in KP missions with more squads in Rhinos? Also, I think that the extra durability and assault range from Raiders means you should be delivering just as many, or more, Berserkers into cc with the enemy.

Good point, though. I can definitely see what you're saying about all the eggs in one basket. Can you outline a situation or matchup where it would be better to have the Rhino set up?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Shas'O Dorian wrote:You're going to have trouble holding objectives. Yes you can take them but holding them might be a problem. You can hole up in the LR's but then you aren't killing your enemy.

Also you rely entirely too much on your land raiders. They are AV 14 but there are a lot of lists out there that can deal with that. If your opponent just concentrates his AT fire on one LR until it's dead he can effectively neutralize an entire 1/3 of your army per turn.

This isn't a list your opponent can shoot at everything but with 4 units on the board (to shoot at) he doesn't have to. That and should your zerkers get on an objective w/o a LR any smart opponent will sit 13" away & shoot you, if you want to kill him you have to get off the objective.

A land raider sitting still isn't really doing nothing, though. That just lets them fire to full effect every turn. And you don't worry about camping objectives until you've already killed some stuff. You'll only camp for 2 turns max, and your opponent's army should be at considerably less than full strength at that point.

I admit, the list is gambling that you can't kill a Land Raider every turn. But, how many lists can reliably kill a LR every turn from outside of melta range? (Because as soon as you get close to melta range, you're getting charged). I'm actually asking, not rhetorically. If that makes sense.

I would worry more about objectives then kill points, most games played use objectives as the main way to win.

One squad of nine with kharn in a raider has worked for me in the past. One of the main things i see wrong with your list is the lack of Anti tank sure you have 6 lasscannons but they are only BS 3. You have no reliable way to stop other transports. Yes you can assault the tank but if you don't surround it your going to find your self being hosed by the squad that jumps out.

Eldar are just going to laugh at this army and just pop your tanks with lances or fire dragons then proceed to shoot the squad to pieces with the rest of their tanks.

Your still going to be weak against melta armies. Three land raiders are not going to stop an attack bike squad or land speeders or anything else that moves fast with melta guns. Your going to have to move to try and stay out of melta range and then your not shooting but one weapon at BS 3.

In short one raider with zerkers and kharn can work but only if they have regular CSM or Plague marines in rhinos to hold objectives.

Could be good, but I can easily see a Lascannon and meltagun heavy IG list that can easily pop a raider a turn at range and can kill them even more easily when you ty to charge them. This could also happen with Space Marines.

I ususally run many normal CSM, 1 full squad o zerks in a LR for that assault ramp. Or sometimes even just kharn :p But 3 raiders and its just not going to work out. Also put kharn either alone or with a unit with an invul save

cosmic pixie wrote:Could be good, but I can easily see a Lascannon and meltagun heavy IG list that can easily pop a raider a turn at range and can kill them even more easily when you ty to charge them. This could also happen with Space Marines.

at BS 3, it should take guard somewhere around 15 lascannon shots to reliably kill or immobilize a Land Raider a turn. And that's not including your turn of Smoke or other cover saves. Doesn't seem too likely to happen at 2000 points.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

IronfrontAlex wrote:I ususally run many normal CSM, 1 full squad o zerks in a LR for that assault ramp. Or sometimes even just kharn :p But 3 raiders and its just not going to work out. Also put kharn either alone or with a unit with an invul save

Sure, Kharn should mulch 1 Berserker per turn of cc. totally acceptable, in my book, since he has 9 guys with him. Possessed are more expensive than Berserkers, with no Power Fist. And they only have a 5++. Kharn by himself is too vulnerable to instant-kill via shooting. A single lascannon shot ends him with no sweat.

As far as objective missions, you have 4 scoring units at 2000 points, 3 of which are very protected. More than enough for the 2 objective mission, and decent in the multiple objective mission.

I could see Eldar skimmers with Brightlance spam being a very good counter. If anyone could post a specific 2000 point list for this or any other counters, that would be rad.

digi laser wrote:I could see Eldar skimmers with Brightlance spam being a very good counter. If anyone could post a specific 2000 point list for this or any other counters, that would be rad.

Eldar skimmers with Brightlance spam wouldn't be a good counter because BL suck. They have good stats but their point cost is just too much.
What will counter you is 2 (or 3) squads of Fire Dragons in Serpents. Which is fairly common. They will get to you FAST, and about 6 meltas to the face later your LR will likely be torn apart. This with a support from Fire Prisms (and maybe fortuned Avatar running your way) will hurt like crap.

Also I think that just one combi-melta Drop Pod can cripple 1/3 of your army.

Yeah, it works well! my friend has been using that combo of LR + berserkers on me lately and its tough.

Here's the counter: Keep in mind this isn't a specific counter list it's an all comers list I think could beat yours. Strengths being the troops are effectively T5 - negating your furious charge have 3 meltas per squad, can turbo boost into your face & the dreads have enough long range power to kill you off objectives. (4 TL BS4 auto-cannon shots per dread per turn).


1 Space Marine Captain @ 170 pts (...in Power Armour)
1 ...in Power Armour (Unit Type: Bikes; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Iron Halo; Power Armour; Melta Bombs; Space Marine Bike; Bolt Pistol; Relic Blade x1; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Tactics; Independent Characte
1 Space Marine Bike

7 Space Marine Bike Squad @ 290 pts (Unit Type: Bikes; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Space Marine Bike; Bolt Pistol x5; Meltagun x2; Attack Bike; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Squads; Combat Tactics)
1 Attack Bike (Unit Type: Bikes; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol; Multi-Melta; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Squads; Combat Tactics)
1 Sergeant (Unit Type: Bikes; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Melta Bombs; Power Armour; Space Marine Bike; Bolt Pistol; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Squads; Combat Tactics)
(^^Five of those^^) That's 3 meltas a piece one being a multi & melta bombs.

1 Dreadnought @ 125 pts (Vehicle (Walker); Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Twin Linked Autocannon; Twin Linked Autocannon)
(^^3 of those^^)
1995 pts total

Now you can choose to try & take down the dreads with your LR but then you're ignoring the 15 melta guns turbo-boosting into your face and since there are 5 squads you will always have to worry about at least one of them melting your LR's.

Also the previously stated eldar list. Mech guard with melta vets in valks & demolishers. Railgun heavy Tau. DE airforce.
Chaos using plague marines with meltas in rhinos, chosen with 2 melta 2 flamer (outflanking in rhinos), 2 DP w/ warptime & obliterators. its between 6 & 7 rhinos w/ 2 meltas each. DP who are MC's& oblits.
You're list isn't BAD it's just a one trick pony with too many ways to stop it.

Edit: @ darth, what army do you play & what list? PM to save space, I'll try to figure out how to beat it, depending on how well I know the army.

Macok wrote:

digi laser wrote:I could see Eldar skimmers with Brightlance spam being a very good counter. If anyone could post a specific 2000 point list for this or any other counters, that would be rad.

Eldar skimmers with Brightlance spam wouldn't be a good counter because BL suck. They have good stats but their point cost is just too much.
What will counter you is 2 (or 3) squads of Fire Dragons in Serpents. Which is fairly common. They will get to you FAST, and about 6 meltas to the face later your LR will likely be torn apart. This with a support from Fire Prisms (and maybe fortuned Avatar running your way) will hurt like crap.

Also I think that just one combi-melta Drop Pod can cripple 1/3 of your army.

I'm thinking that this army relies on luck a lot. Sure, a single Multi-Melta can melt a raider, but if you flub the to-hit, arm. penetration or vehicle damage rolls on that Melta, your drop pod unit just got charged and eaten without doing anything. Actually, even if you do drop pod next to a Raider and melt it, that's all your drop pod guys get to do that turn, and will get charged for sure by the almost-unhurt Berserkers. It's almost like the Raider isn't needed in that case, because you don't need to deliver them against an enemy that teleports next to you.

As far as the Raiders dying, it doesn't really matter if it doesn't happen on turn 1 or 2. If you can make it to turn 3 with all 3 raiders mobile and unwrecked, you're almost sure to win. It doesn't matter if they get melted after that, because you have 29 berserkers plus Kharn assaulting your opponent's deployment zone.

digi laser wrote:

Macok wrote:...
Also I think that just one combi-melta Drop Pod can cripple 1/3 of your army.

I'm thinking that this army relies on luck a lot. Sure, a single Multi-Melta can melt a raider, but if you flub the to-hit, arm. penetration or vehicle damage rolls on that Melta, your drop pod unit just got charged and eaten without doing anything. Actually, even if you do drop pod next to a Raider and melt it, that's all your drop pod guys get to do that turn, and will get charged for sure by the almost-unhurt Berserkers. It's almost like the Raider isn't needed in that case, because you don't need to deliver them against an enemy that teleports next to you.

As far as the Raiders dying, it doesn't really matter if it doesn't happen on turn 1 or 2. If you can make it to turn 3 with all 3 raiders mobile and unwrecked, you're almost sure to win. It doesn't matter if they get melted after that, because you have 29 berserkers plus Kharn assaulting your opponent's deployment zone.

Sorry, my mistake.. Didn't make clear what I was thinking. Single drop pod, numerous combi meltas. Like, for example 4 termies with CM. Even if they don't kill the Raider this single DP can slow it down (if it lands on it's way). If KB get out and assault them it's win anyway. That's exactly what we were going for - making Berserkers disembark and susceptible for fire.

And if you're assaulting deployment zone, all the points are free to capture.

I'm not saying that this is a very weak army. Just some balanced armies will wreck it. Not to mention if someone is expecting it.
It's just 3 mobile units. Either they are focused and can be avoided, or dispersed and can be dealt with one by one.

It's a cool idea, but not one I'd spam. They all have the same weaknesses, so no other units you have can patch those weak spots.

digi the issue is, Bikes can move 12" & shoot you or move 18" away. That & they're tough 5 so they're a little more survivable in CC. If the bikes decide to run you won't catch them. That and there are 5 bike squads so even if you assault with all your forces that still leaves one squad unengaged & 3 dreads. So say you kill a squad, the dreads shoot you dead because you have nowhere to hide. That said if you get out a a LR you had better be within 12" of the bikes, which if kill will make you a huge target for the dreads autocannons.

Rhinos simply let you have more bezerkers AND more to back them up - namely Obliterators and daemon princes. Massed AV11 is a lot harder to kill at range, and adding havoc launchers for a bargain 15 points massively increases their threat once theyve dropped off a load. It also allows you to leave units behind on objectives in your zone without massively dropping your offensive power.

Basically, it's still a trick pony list.
Min/maxing in the hopes the opponent can't deal with AV 14 as it's still just MEQ's inside.

Special weapons are the bread and butter of the CSM list...a list without is IMO not a serious list.