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So I understand the rules regarding S8 weaponry inflicting ID on a model with the T4(5) stat. However, how would the Swarmlord resolve his hits...Would he wound on a 2+ or a 3+ against plague marines etc? The way I'm readng it is that if a wound would inflict ID you don't get the benefit of the bonus:

"When it comes to instant death, such bonuses do not count"
and
"In these cases two values will be shown ...use the lowest vaue for working out instant death".

The first sentence seems to be refering to any hits that inflict ID, while the second seems to only apply to ID inflicted from weapons which are double the toughness.

So which is correct?

The roll to wound is seperate from determining whether or not Instant Death takes place, first of all.

Roll to wound as normal, and then apply any special rules that the model doing the wounding might have. The t4(5) just means that if you're putting a wound on say, a plague marine, that you ID him with S8 and not s10.

Yes but the Swarmlord inflicts ID on all his hits...that's why I'm asking.

Perhaps I'm not understanding your answer...sorry.

Lukus83 wrote:Yes but the Swarmlord inflicts ID on all his hits...that's why I'm asking.

Perhaps I'm not understanding your answer...sorry.

He causes ID regardless of toughness, so he rolls to wound as normal, then causes ID whether the target is Toughness 3 or Toughness 10.

so dos he roll to wound on a 2+ seeing as his hits all cause ID, or is that resolved after rolling to wound making it a 3+?

It's the wording that's puzzling me.

Mis read the OP, please disregard this post

Lukus83 wrote:Yes but the Swarmlord inflicts ID on all his hits...that's why I'm asking.

Perhaps I'm not understanding your answer...sorry.

Instant Death is NEVER used to determine the value used to Wound someone, it is an *effect* that occurs when you cause an unsaved wound.

So the fact the unit is 4(5) is irrelevant to the Swarmlord, as he wounds againt T(5) and then causes instant death despite not being S8+, due to his special rule.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Instant Death is NEVER used to determine the value used to Wound someone, it is an *effect* that occurs when you cause an unsaved wound.

So the fact the unit is 4(5) is irrelevant to the Swarmlord, as he wounds againt T(5) and then causes instant death despite not being S8+, due to his special rule.

nosferatu1001 has it correct and true.

But in the ID rules it does state that "when it comes to ID, such bonuses do not count".

So I guess the amended question is does ID resolve after wounding or before?

Lukus83 wrote:But in the ID rules it does state that "when it comes to ID, such bonuses do not count".

So I guess the amended question is does ID resolve after wounding or before?

Such bonuses do not count when determining if they suffer instant death FROM THE STRENGTH OF THE WEAPON. If you cause ID regardless of Toughness, you cause ID regardless.

From your answers I'm guessing after.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thanks

It is resolved after wounding, as without a wound, there is not instant death. The "bonus" does not count for purposes of double toughness instant death. So a typical missile launcher (S8) would cause instant death to anything T4(5) as the +1 toughness "bonus" would not count. Special rules that cause instant death always wound based on strength versus toughness, the rule has no bearing on the difficulty of wounding.

You roll to hit, then to wound. Any saves are taken, and if you fail them (or cant take e.g. armour against a power) you take a wound.

At that point IF you are a multiwound model (as otherwise you are dead ) you determine if the attack causes Instant Death. - but this is *after* you have wounded, so you only ignroie the (5) at this point, not when you wounded.

For a better example consider the old chaos Obliterators, that were T4(5) with a 2+ save and 2W:

1) If you fire a Krak Missile at them, you roll to wound against S8 Vs T(5), i.e. you wound on 2s.
2) The Oblit gets a 2+ Armour save - if it fails it you *then* check for ID conditions and find out it is only T4 when considering ID, meaning the model dies losing its last wound.
3) If the Oblit saves on a 2+ nothing more happens.

That is waht ID means by "ignored for the purposes of ID" - you roll to wound as normal, it is only *after* the target fails a wound, and you check to see if it was ID'd, does the number in brackets get ignored.

Thanks very much for all your speedy replies. Issue resolved.