Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Let's say I was playing Guard and I gave an order to Fire on My Target at a unit of Lesser Daemons inside area terrain. The rules say in the case of multiple saves, the unit "always uses the best possible save."

The only problem is, it depends on what you mean by "best". The Daemons have an invulerable of 5+ which gives them a .33 chance of passing, but they have a 4+ cover save which they need to reroll if successful which is only a .25 chance of passing. But some who aren't so good at math might try to take the 4+ rerollable, as well as some who might argue that you have to take the 4+ and reroll if you pass even though it becomes a worse save than the 5+ once you have to reroll it.

This in my opinion is a trilemma:

-- If you say that in situations like these the unit always uses the 4+ save, then it shafts the Daemons because they'll actually die easier than taking their 5+ invuln.
-- If you say that in situations like these the unit always uses the statistically best save, then you have to break out the calculators, and some gamers who aren't so good at math might dispute the results.
-- If you say that the owning player gets to choose which save he gets, then it leaves the door open for abuse in the cases where the rolling player chooses the worst save in hopes of dying for some reason.

How I would play it: let the player making the saves decide in complicated situations like this unless it is obvious he is trying to die easier for an advantage, in which case I'd call over a judge and see if they agree that they should take the statistically best save. But that isn't an optimal solution of course.

Ludovic wrote:Let's say I was playing Guard and I gave an order to Fire on My Target at a unit of Lesser Daemons inside area terrain. The rules say in the case of multiple saves, the unit "always uses the best possible save."

The only problem is, it depends on what you mean by "best". The Daemons have an invulerable of 5+ which gives them a .33 chance of passing, but they have a 4+ cover save which they need to reroll if successful which is only a .25 chance of passing. But some who aren't so good at math might try to take the 4+ rerollable, as well as some who might argue that you have to take the 4+ and reroll if you pass even though it becomes a worse save than the 5+ once you have to reroll it.

This in my opinion is a trilemma:

-- If you say that in situations like these the unit always uses the 4+ save, then it shafts the Daemons because they'll actually die easier than taking their 5+ invuln.
-- If you say that in situations like these the unit always uses the statistically best save, then you have to break out the calculators, and some gamers who aren't so good at math might dispute the results.
-- If you say that the owning player gets to choose which save he gets, then it leaves the door open for abuse in the cases where the rolling player chooses the worst save in hopes of dying for some reason.

How I would play it: let the player making the saves decide in complicated situations like this unless it is obvious he is trying to die easier for an advantage, in which case I'd call over a judge and see if they agree that they should take the statistically best save. But that isn't an optimal solution of course.

The game doesn't define what best is, so you have to make it up as you go along.

Personally, I would use whatever save gives you the greatest chance of success as "best". Let's be honest, if you cannot fathom simple probability, you might just be in the wrong kind of hobby.

Ludovic wrote:-- If you say that the owning player gets to choose which save he gets, then it leaves the door open for abuse in the cases where the rolling player chooses the worst save in hopes of dying for some reason.

...so not really that big an abuse...



From my experience, it's generally played that the owning player can choose which save to use. That's the most straightforward interpretation, since the rules don't define how to determine the 'best save'.

The owning player gets to choose...

My two cents with a slight 'no you're, worng wrong worngy, worng worong, wroooonnnnnngggg' tilt to it

Ludovic wrote: The Daemons have an invulerable of 5+ which gives them a .33 chance of passing, but they have a 4+ cover save which they need to reroll if successful which is only a .25 chance of passing.

The thing is it's the best save not the best save with a re-roll one doesn't 'do the maths' and calculate which save is best after it's all been done one takes a save the best one and if passing/failing/rolling 6 effect that save one then applies the effect one doesn't pre-empt that effects may happen after taking your best save that you don't want

Also saves are singular and re-rolling is really 'part' of a save now is it?

ChrisCP wrote:My two cents with a slight 'no you're, worng wrong worngy, worng worong, wroooonnnnnngggg' tilt to it

Ludovic wrote: The Daemons have an invulerable of 5+ which gives them a .33 chance of passing, but they have a 4+ cover save which they need to reroll if successful which is only a .25 chance of passing.

The thing is it's the best save not the best save with a re-roll one doesn't 'do the maths' and calculate which save is best after it's all been done one takes a save the best one and if passing/failing/rolling 6 effect that save one then applies the effect one doesn't pre-empt that effects may happen after taking your best save that you don't want

Also saves are singular and re-rolling is really 'part' of a save now is it?

But one can argue that the 4+ save is no longer the best save, because you will have to re-roll it, making it a worse save.

Why do you need to pull out the calc for determining the best save?

seriously, 3+ vs 4+ vs 5+ vs 6+ is pretty simple...

best option for save could be subjective though as you've indicated...

Outright with no other modifier a 3+ save is better than a 4+ save, but in the situation the player could say that they want to lose it and kill off the unit or some of it and choose to take a 6+ save.

Gwar! wrote:But one can argue that the 4+ save is no longer the best save, because you will have to re-roll it, making it a worse save.

@Serphis: Because some people want to say that one should consider the re-roll as the orginal roll, not some flashy thing we get to do after taking the save.

The effectiveness of saves are as follows:

2 - 5/6 of wounds saved
2 w/ReRoll - 25/36 saved
3 - 2/3
4 - 1/2
3RR - 4/9
5 - 1/3
4RR - 1/4
6 - 1/6
5RR - 1/9
6RR - 1/36

So, I would say that in the case of FomT, use the one that's highest on the above list.

vs 12 wounds (to make the math easy)
5+ save, 4 live
4+ save vs FomT, 6 pass, reroll successful saves, 3 pass, 3 live

Personally, I let my opponent choose.

It really is not difficult to figure out which save gives the best chance for survival, if you are struggling then go grab a book on fractions...

Also, lets not try to bully someone into taking a save that will lead to more of their models dying because you want to argue they need to take the 'best save' when that can be interpreted several ways. Same goes for hoping to fail a morale check on your SM squad.

In the end I think this falls squarely under do not be TFG.

It is 2/3 dead vs 3/4 dead, pretty easy to figure.

For more on a similar question:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/267969.page

DoW

Choose whatever save you deem best...it's your men that are taking it.

Surely the 'best' save is the one which results in the most wounds being de-inflicted.

Kilkrazy wrote:Surely the 'best' save is the one which results in the most wounds being de-inflicted.

Exactly
A save is something that stops you from taking wounds
The best "something that stopsyou taking wounds" is the thing that maximises your chance of succeeding, ie the best chance of saving.

Easy, and handily fits standard English usage

In this case I'd say the issues are so complicated that yes the saver should choose. But it's different for, say, trying to soften up a Terminator Squad with bolters before you attack them, hoping to bounce off of them in close combat, but you don't want to kill them all because then you'll be in a bad position.

In this case the terminators should be forced to take their 2+ saves rather than allowed their 5+ saves in hopes of all dying and leaving the opponent stranded.

Are you saying that the target unit should take a worse save in order to save fewer wounds, to make it easier to assault them?