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I'm building my first real Fantasy Battles army (Beastmen), but it's a question that's gotten me in a larger context because I've never actually played a full game.

When do you take the champion/standard/musician? How do you make that decision?

I know in the previous BoC army book, nearly all the advice I said not to take command options for gors/ungors.

At the moment I'm just building musicians/standard bearers as I decide the look cool.

Champions generally aren't worth the point's for beastmen unless you have another hero in their that you don't want to take and die in a challenge.

Musicians are almost a must, with our low leadership, they're too cheap to not take.

Standards depends. If its a smaller unit (say 10-12) don't, as thats to small. If its 18+, I say take one for the extra CR.

I am not a Beastmen player, so take everything I say with a grain of salt.

Musicians - I do not see the downside to taking a musician for any unit that might find itself in close combat. Remember, all things being equal in combat, the musician is the final tie breaker. You would hate to lose a big combat because your opponent had one and you didn't. There really isn't a downside to musicians, as your enemy gets no bonus points for killing them. These are especially useful for units you might be using as bait, as the bonus to rally is always helpful. The only time I do not use musicians are in units of archers.

Standards - You have to be a little more careful with these. I tend to use them only on units that will see extensive close combat where the bonus (and magical effect, if I have a magic standard) are essential. I tend to use these in hard hitting cavalry units and big blocks of infantry.

Champions - I tend to use champions in units where I have my special characters. Its always nice to have that extra body who can throw out, or accept a challenge if the need arises. Some magic items might be really nice for certain units as well, so that is another reason people tend to use em as well. I can't really speak for beastmen, or what strategy you might employ with them, so hopefully someone with more beastmen experience will join the thread.

Just my 2 cents.

Hopefully a beastmen player will elaborate further.

If the unit can generate a +5 to their combat without doing any wounds, A champion and Musician should always be considered because they will always win the first round of combat against any single character. (Front) Always. Even if he's riding a star dragon, and the star dragon is riding a blood thirster.

A musiciain should always be considered if you think the unit may be fleeing, or end up in combats with other units that have the same sort of attack characteristics that you have. Fear Causers should *always* take musicians due to their mechanics

Standards depend on the role of the unit. Some units will always justify them (Static res units or brettonian units) While others, not so much.

High risk, high reward type units such as Khorne knights, Ogre Bulls probably won't need them because they either win the combat huge, or lose the combat huge.

I always look at cost to benefit ratio for champions and music. Low LD armies need music more than high ld. Fully ranked units need champs, to give them the nice little res cap against characters. Small units don't need champs, the idea of small units is to keep them cheap after all. (depending on army, music for those small untis is also needed, all comes down to cost and LD).

As for standards, there is some additional things to think about. Some units have really expensive banner costs, and compared to how much killing they can do, probably don't need or want banners. Chaos knights, cold ones knights/cavalry, blood knights, ogres type units (including bloodcrushers) all don't need or want to invest in banners (unless there is a particular magic banner they can take) because they can generate reliably more wounds than most R&F bring SCR. These units are usually the most expensive per model units you field, so adding additional cost for +1 SCR isn't usually worth it, especially since your opponent can get +100 VPs if they win combat. Human stat line knight units tend to have the rubber lance issue quite often, so banners are more worth it (though not always).

notabot187 wrote:Human stat line knight units tend to have the rubber lance issue quite often, so banners are more worth it (though not always).

It's ok, they make pills for that now.

Kirbinator wrote:

notabot187 wrote:Human stat line knight units tend to have the rubber lance issue quite often, so banners are more worth it (though not always).

It's ok, they make pills for that now.

My general tips are;

musicians = cheapest of the extras, they don't give up victory points, tie-breakers, and +1 to rally. My first thought is would not buying musicians in all my units get me another full unit. I usually get musicians first for my units that I plan on fleeing with and then points permitting filling out the other units.

standards = +1 to CR, but 100 vp if lost. My reasons for getting them are to get the magic banner I need or the additional +1 CR to a unit I believe can win cc.(I don't just want to through away 100points)

champions = I usually only grab these when I have a character in the unit as well.

Specifically I use them in these situations

My DE full command on spearmen, standard bearers for magic standards (ASF for black guard), and musicians in my dark riders points permitting.
My WE bladesinger in my wardancers if I take a wardancer noble, musicians in my glade riders if points permit.
My Dwarfs full commands in my cc units to maximaize SCR and engineers on my bolt throwers.

Ragnar4 wrote:If the unit can generate a +5 to their combat without doing any wounds, A champion and Musician should always be considered because they will always win the first round of combat against any single character. (Front) Always. Even if he's riding a star dragon, and the star dragon is riding a blood thirster.

This isn't technically true. If a model like a bloodthirster or star-dragon riding prince can generate six wounds, they will win the combat. Even if you throw a champion up to challenge, they will still qualify for the one wound, +5 additional combat resolution for overkill. It's a little dicey for the big guy (though not outrageous for a bloodthirster to get 6 wounds if using a firestorm blade and re-rolls).

This doesn't Ragnar's advice, but I thought I should note the error here. Perhaps you're exaggerating for effect, but the two *always* made me feel it was necessary to clarify.

On topic: With the leadership being what it is for beasts, I think a musician should be the first buy for most units. Thus if you break and escape, or flee an unfavorable charge, your chances of coming back the fight are much higher. The help in tied combats doesn't hurt either.

For small units, the champion is the next consideration, but kind of down there. For gor, you're looking at an extra strength 3 possibly re-rolled attack, which isn't much to write home about. Bestigor, things look better. For minotaurs, there is the added bonus of wound randomization in your small unit, meaning you've got a shot at taking 3 or 4 wounds before you actually remove a model. Ogre armies will do this, particularly with 2 man leadbelcher units (though there, it's for misfire protection as much as anything).

Banner comes last and only on units that are less likely to give up the free 100 VPs for getting beaten in combat.

RZ

Never thought of it that way, Ragnar4...damn.

Edit-- Perhaps I'm mis-remembering the rules, but I thought in a challenge against a champ the best the character could do was +5...

You need to read the italics callout on page 77 more closely. The rulebook could hardly have a more clear explanation on this. They even use the example of a dragon rider, for goodness sake. I know you play a fair amount, so I'm surprised you have this wrong.

The relevant section:

For example, a Lord-level character and his dragon fight a champion in a challenge. They slay the champion before he has a chance to attack and cause seven wounds on him! Their combat result score is 1 (the original wound of the champion) plus 5 (the maximum overkill bonus) for a total of 6 combat result points. The last of the seven wounds is wasted.

I think that's probably all I need to say about that.

Apologies to the original poster for moving this OT, but I didn't want this misconception to perpetuate.

RZ

AS far as command goes, with low LD armies i like the musicians, otherwise they arent worth it.

Standards i normally dont take unless its a SCR army OR i can take a strong magic standard.

Champions i also normally leave out unless they can carry magic items. Normally its like spending 6-10 points for one extra attack and thats it. However if they can take magic items things change quite a bit.

Champions can also be nifty for keeping a large unit around for longer. If you're counting on the outnumber bonus to help you out, you can use a champion to preserve that for a little while.

For instance, I might use a champion in a dwarf warrior block to challenge out an exalted champion. That exalted might inflict 4 wounds, which will still count for combat resolution, but I only lost 1 model instead of 4, preserving my outnumbering bonus for a little while longer.

RZ

OH yeah, ill also snag a champion if im running a hero or lord in the unit.

That way they can be challenge fodder if i dont feel like taking it on the hero/lord.

I don't see why people are saying "Maybe some else can comment on beasts" when I did in the very first post..?

I think it's intended more as a "here's my advice, but Beasts aren't my expertise" comment, than a "why hasn't anyone answered from a Beasts perspective".

RZ

Red_Zeke wrote:You need to read the italics callout on page 77 more closely. The rulebook could hardly have a more clear explanation on this. They even use the example of a dragon rider, for goodness sake. I know you play a fair amount, so I'm surprised you have this wrong.


RZ

Yeah, that's my bad, it's been a while. I was playing 2 or 3x weekly before I moved to the current hole I live in, I actually haven't played more than a handfull of times over the last 6 months.

On a plus note, that means at the very worst the most you can lose a combat bye would be -1 if a supercharacter challenged and a hero accepted (barring any magical item type shennigans...) Which is HUGE when you consider that a lord level character on a giant monster needs to kill as much as quickly as possible to get his points back.

Ragnar4 wrote:

On a plus note, that means at the very worst the most you can lose a combat bye would be -1 if a supercharacter challenged and a hero accepted (barring any magical item type shennigans...) Which is HUGE when you consider that a lord level character on a giant monster needs to kill as much as quickly as possible to get his points back.

And this is why I mentioned that the rest of your advice was still pretty much valid and helpful. In your big blocks, a champion is great for absorbing the worst of a charge from an uber-character.

Thanks guys. I'd read the rules in the rulebook but was having trouble translating them into actual army design. Your comments have been very helpful.

The rumour though that in the next edition some scenarios will only allow objectives to be captured by units with standards does throw a wrench into this, but I'll wait and see.

YEah a little bit. (standards capturing monkey wrench question)

Most armies I play always take all 3 all the time unless it's fast cav or a skirmisher.

Man, if I had standards that could capture monkeys and provoke questions from wrenches, that would rule!