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A couple quick questions about command points and overwatch. I probably already know the answers, but could really use some feedback.

If I jam while on OW, can I use a command point to clear the jam?
If so, does that remove the OW?
If OW is removed that way, can i spend more command points to go back on OW (assuming i have the points to spend)?

Thanks

Beer_&_Bolters wrote:If I jam while on OW, can I use a command point to clear the jam?
If so, does that remove the OW?
If OW is removed that way, can i spend more command points to go back on OW (assuming i have the points to spend)?

Yes to all if you're playing strictly by the rules.

When you jam you can use a command point to clear it but you have lost the Overwatch, so have to pay another 2 CPs, to go back into OW, then the 'stealer player can resume their turn. This effectively means that to restore a Marine back to the situtation he was in before he jammed costs you 3 CPs!!

I found this too much, it was just too difficult for the Marine player and if you don't get your OW back then there's hardly any point in using precious CPs to clear the jam in the first place, might as well wait until the following turn and clear the jam with normal Action Points. A marine losing Overwatch is usually terminal. So we simply allowed the marine to return to OW for free after paying 1CP to clear the jam. That was no great bias to the Marine, many times we had Marines suffer several jams or simply have almost no command points to start with.

The other thing we changed was that the rules strictly said that figures could only move one at a time and that once one figure was done moving and another started, the first could not go again. This didn't make much sense and made it far too difficult for Marines to organise themselves and shuffle around rooms. So we allowed players to move figures in whatever order and interchange between them until they ran out of action points. This applied to the Genestealer player too, as strictly the 'stealer player has to move one at a time so each 'stealer has to make a seperate charge down the corridors taking a shot from the Marine player every step of the way. Allowing the stealer player to change between figures between moving effectively allowed him to have conga lines of 'stealers pouring down the corridors, as the first 'stealer steps forward one space and and has to take the shot from the marine on overwatch while the rest all get to step forward once afterwards behind in safety. The line of genestealers pushes its way down the corridor and as one dies the one behind has to take its place, but each time this happens the next genestealer revealed is ever closer to the Marine.

We found this a much more realistic and thrilling way to play the game, and allowing the marine to get his overwatch back for free after a jam seemed to balance it out quite well.

XD thanks for the info

Me and the gf (my primary opponent atm) also changed the 'active model' rule. it just doesnt seem realistic; the marines can talk to eachother and the stealers have the hive mind going on, no reason they couldnt coordinate and move around/with eachother.

I had another question too, well, more of a mild confusion, regarding the correct way that blips can be revealed, their stealers placed, and if those stealers can immediately use ap to move/fight etc. both voluntary and involuntary reveals have me just a little confused. thanks for any feedback.

Beer_&_Bolters wrote:XD thanks for the info

Me and the gf (my primary opponent atm) also changed the 'active model' rule. it just doesnt seem realistic; the marines can talk to eachother and the stealers have the hive mind going on, no reason they couldnt coordinate and move around/with eachother.

I had another question too, well, more of a mild confusion, regarding the correct way that blips can be revealed, their stealers placed, and if those stealers can immediately use ap to move/fight etc. both voluntary and involuntary reveals have me just a little confused. thanks for any feedback.

I forget the exact rules but you are supposed to ideally reveal blips before or after you move. There's no real need to convert them mid move, but I suppose any APs used by the blip should be taken from the stealers placed on the board, ie. the blip moves 3 and converts, each stealer has 3 APs to continue. You can't voluntarily convert a blip and put a stealer into Marine LOS. For instance, a (3) blip cannot stand just around the corner from a marine and convert and then place a stealer in the view of the marine even if there's no where else for it to go. The blip can step a square further away from the corner to have room to place all three stealers on the board or lose the one that wants to appear in Marine LOS. Otherwise they've effectively had a free move closer to the Marine. Also the same cannot be done for doors, a blip cannot voluntarily open a door to reveal themselves to the Marine player, they should convert before opening the door and obviously this means converting before they reach the door, otherwise a (3) blip doesn't have enough room to fit all the stealers on the board, because the closed door occupies the space they need. A blip must always convert before moving into Marine LOS, a blip can't move into Marine LOS thus forcing it to convert.

Involuntary conversions only ocur in the marine player turn when the Marine moves so that a blip comes into LOS. In this case the stealer player can put their genestealers on the board even if it means that a genestealer is now a square closer to the marine. For instance if a (3) blip is on one side of a door and the marine opens that door, to place all three stealers on the board one of them has to go on the space that was previously occupied by the door, and is effectively now touching the marine player. In an involuntary conversion the stealer can't move or do anything until its own turn comes around though, so there's still some opportunity for the marine player to try and kill it.

Awesome thanks!

As we get further along in our campaign i'm sure i'll have more questions, but for now i think im good to go.

Page 16-17 converting blips - this gets tricky and we were to some extent assuming some stuff that was in the 96 rules, basically flip the blip then move.
However, under Voluntary Conversion P16) this seems to have changed:
"He (the stealer player) reveals the blip instead of activating it;" we think this means the same thing.

In the New SH (2009)
Page 19 under Jams
2nd paragraph 3rd sentence 'Once the jam is cleared flip the counter back over to show that the mnodel is back in overwatch'.

In the older (1996) edition this was not the case - the marine lost overwatch.

Interesting that Howards 'House Rule' became an 'actual' rule in 3rd ed- very cool! And also good to know.

I used to have the 'blip can voluntarily convert at any time in the move, with the genestealers revealed being able to move the remainder of the APs' house rule, but it actually does end up being pretty confusing in certain circumstances, and with third edition, particularly as I am teaching it to a lot of new people, I've decided that a blip may only voluntarily convert at either the beginning or the end of its move- so if the blip converts at the start of the move it is clear that the `stealers have 6APS, and if it conevrts at the end of its move it is clear that they have 0APs. This is a much simpler way to run things and is much easier to explain than the advanced rule (although if an opponent asked to do it during a game I'd hardly complain!)

on a side note... is it me or is the starting scenario too hard for the marines? i tried it one weekend with some friends and the marines lost every single time (although one time they came within a single die roll of winning). do the later scenarios get a bit more balanced? we had the usual gambit of luck and no boneheaded moves except for one game but just couldn't get the marines to the control room.

warboss wrote:on a side note... is it me or is the starting scenario too hard for the marines? i tried it one weekend with some friends and the marines lost every single time (although one time they came within a single die roll of winning). do the later scenarios get a bit more balanced? we had the usual gambit of luck and no boneheaded moves except for one game but just couldn't get the marines to the control room.

Suicide Mission? yeah, that one is hard as hell for some reason. Ive played that mission like eight times now and have only managed to win once; and that was by the skin of my teeth. Further missions do get easier tho, so dont get too discouraged.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
After playing quite a few games over the weekend, I came upon a couple more things that i could use some clarification on.

If one of my marines is attacked from the side, and the combat is a tie, would he turn to face the attacker? the rule book says he turns to face on a win, but nothing about a tie. Does he just stay put?

The CP counter:
I get to draw a new one each turn, right? and as long as i have a sargent alive i have the option of picking a different one?
What happens when my sargents are dead? do i still get to draw a new counter each turn, or am i stuck with the same one for the rest of the game?

I'm extremely confused, the missions should get HARDER as the campaign progresses, not easier? Suicide mission is a training mission that the marines should win pretty much every time.

To answer your questions: Yes, on a tie the marine would turn to face.

You draw a new CP counter every turn. If your sarge is alive then you may redraw but if he is dead then you must take the first counter you draw- but you always draw again at the start of your next turn anyway.

I just wanted to point out that in the current version of the game (3rd edition) that clearing a jam with a command point now automatically returns a marine back onto overwatch. This is a change in how the old rules used to work.


As for the difficult of suicide mission, they changed how many blips arrive in that mission from the previous version of the game which makes the mission much more difficult which is a shame because it is generally used (rightly so) as the 'intro' mission.


As for Command Points, yes you draw a new chit each turn, but if you have no sgts left then you're stuck with what you draw each turn, you're not allowed to 're-draw' each turn as that's what the sgts allow you to do.

And yeah, the rules state that on a tie the defender turns to face the attacker.

Destructor wrote:Interesting that Howards 'House Rule' became an 'actual' rule in 3rd ed- very cool! And also good to know.

I'm suprised too, but it seems only reasonable. Otherwise you need 6 CPs to fully recover from two jams, anything less and you can only recover from one which is rather hard on the marine player. We tweaked several things but never lost the balance, in fact it nudged it in favour of the marines a little, and they do need it quite often.

It sounds like they've changed the nature of 'Suicide Mission', but the trick was always to move quickly. There's a balance in the game of moving quickly while covering yourself. Leaving openings for attack will doom your Marines, but take too long to proceed through the mission and the blips start to pile up and eventually you'll be fighting forever and gaining no ground. Though it is satisfying to bring the flamer to the front and toast a corridor of 'stealers.

I've just got the original PC game again. I had it originally on floppy disks but as I don't have a disk drive on the current PC I had to download it, fortunately it appears to have become openly available online from some Abandonware sites dedicated to old games. Many levels in the game are modelled on those in the rule book, but strangely some were much easier in the computer game than when you try to play for real, while some easy board games were really hard on the PC. "Defend" is a doddle on the PC, but I seem to recall it being quite tricky playing for real.

Thank you everyone for your replies. I'm down to a final question (at long last lol).

Can i combine AP with CP? i.e. my marine has used three AP (doing whatever), can i combine his last AP with a single CP to send him on OW/guard?

Beer_&_Bolters wrote:Thank you everyone for your replies. I'm down to a final question (at long last lol).

Can i combine AP with CP? i.e. my marine has used three AP (doing whatever), can i combine his last AP with a single CP to send him on OW/guard?

i believe so.. otherwise i was doing things *very* wrong in all my games (all 4, lol).

warboss wrote:

Beer_&_Bolters wrote:Thank you everyone for your replies. I'm down to a final question (at long last lol).

Can i combine AP with CP? i.e. my marine has used three AP (doing whatever), can i combine his last AP with a single CP to send him on OW/guard?

i believe so.. otherwise i was doing things *very* wrong in all my games (all 4, lol).

Without a doubt, you can!

Just when i think ive got everything in the game figured out...
My friend was playing the marines the other night, and thought up something im not so sure about myself. Now, ordinarily it costs a marine two AP to turn 180 degrees, she however, did something a bit different. She turned 90 degrees for the normal 1 AP, but then made another 90 degree turn and combined it with a move forward, essentially turning 180 and getting a free move forward. Is this allowable?
<curses self for never having the rulebook on hand when he needs it>

Beer_&_Bolters wrote: She turned 90 degrees for the normal 1 AP, but then made another 90 degree turn and combined it with a move forward, essentially turning 180 and getting a free move forward. Is this allowable?

Unless I'm misinterpreting what you're saying, no, you can't combine a turn and a move forward. You either have to turn then move or move then turn- there is nothing in the action chart listing combos of the nature you're describing. Termies be lumbering giants.

I thought such combos were allowed, you can step forward and turn 90 for 1 AP just as you can step forward and fire combined for 1 Ap.

i believe a free turn in is a move for the genestealers but the marines get a free fire with every move instead.

iirc marines can combine move and shoot, turn and shoot, move and turn/turn and move, all for 1 ap. My issue is that my friend seems to be exploiting this to get a 180 degree turn plus a free move forward. Like destructor mentioned above, termies are lumbering giants, it should be 2ap to turn 180 degrees and nothing else.

There is no "move and turn" for the marines. Check the reference sheet at the back of the rule book.

Forgive me if this counts as threadomancy...
I have another quick question about overwatch - let me set up the situation. Termie A is on the north end of a sidways T intersection, Termie B is a few squares behind on the south end and is on overwatch. a stealer enters from the east side of the intersection, right behind Termie A, and into Termie B's LOS, who shoots on overwatch and misses. The stealer then proceeds to kill Termie A with its next action. Can Termie B then use overwatch to shoot at the stealer again?
Thanks for any input.

As long as the stealer is in line of sight, overwatch will trigger in response to any action of the stealer. So in my opinion, yes he can shoot.

in a slightly similar situation, lets say that the stealer popped out in front of Termie A and then killed him. Could Termie B shoot then as well?

Beer_&_Bolters wrote:in a slightly similar situation, lets say that the stealer popped out in front of Termie A and then killed him. Could Termie B shoot then as well?

Yes, in both cases not only can Termie B fire from overwatch in those situations, he *must*. Any action taken by a stealer within overwatch range and LOS of a marine means they must fire, including actions which result in stealers coming into view, like opening a door or killing a marine in front of them in combat.