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I was wondering how to tailor an army vs. orks. (I play SM) I allready know about flamers, but what other than that would be useful?

What is his list? What's your all-comers list?

Not a particular person, but my all comers list is a land raider, 2 tacs, one with a drop pod, 1 assault squad, emps champ, a captian, and a command squad

Oh, and sometimes some termies.

You will need a crap-lot of fire power, something strong enough to knock out an ork with every 1-2 shots, but with RoF enough to really pound 'em.

Then you'll need strong, durable counter-attack units to pummel them when they get close.

TH/SS termies, Redeemers (thats the flame tank right?), assault cannons, Devs with heavy bolters/missile launchers.

Sit still, in cover, and shoot them to hell and back, then charge out and stove their heads in once they get close.

S_P

Depends a bit on the orks you will face. You already know that flamers are good, not just against orks but pretty much everyone. If you're not an assault force, use your weapon ranges and mobility to keep them at arms length. Overall, orks match up fairly well with marines, so be ready for a tough fight.

Some general ork tips:
-Don't let them charge you; charge them instead to deny the Furious Charge bonus.
-Ork leadership is weak. Whittle them below Fearless range and force tests via pinning and tankshock to abuse them
-Hit Fearless mobs hard in assault to force lots of "No Retreat" losses.
-Use your range and mobility to negate numbers; give yourself as many turns as possible before they can assault and pour fire into them
-Versatile units and weapons, like Missile Launchers, can help with mech orks (krak missiles) and hordes (frag missiles)
-Thunderfire Cannons can annihilate orks in several ways
-Large mobs are difficult to maneuver, so use terrain to your advantage.

Orks can pretty much match whatever you do. Don't only bring anti-infantry because 2-4 Battlewagons in a KFF bubble are damn tough to crack. Always charge them...always. The Land Raiders are good because you have good protection then an 18" charge range. Orks also struggle to take down vehicles far away so some strong tanks are good.

Watch out for Deffkoptas trying to down your armour and distracting you.

Avoid expensive combat characters because the hidden powerclaw will ofter eat you alive and if you charge you don't really need the added hits anyway.

Never spread out. Combined charges are bad but letting a few mobs hit one squad at a time is worse. Always be in range to support and don't waste time on Drop Podding suicide. IMO you're just feeding the ork points.

Land Speeders with heavy flamers are all-around fun. Give it a MM for versitility and you'll have a great support/counter unit. Also, if you can force a disembark with another unit you can often fry most of what's inside a battlewagon. If the gambit fails then the Land-speeder does the popping and you lose <100pts in exchange for his >100 and reduced mobility.

From my experiance against SM armies terminators are absolutely hell to deal with as well as those pesky Space Marine captains... grrrrr

Double Land Raider Redeemers make Orks cry, if given proper support in the form of additional mobile multimeltas to say "no" to enemy Battlewagons.

I play BT, and I can't field redeemers. :(

Lots of flamers, hurricane bolters, heavy flamers, heavy bolters, assault cannons, and other ranged weapons. Also, move them into choke points and open fire with flamers. Be careful to stay out of assault range. The same goes for Tyranids. With Tyranids, thats the imperative. With Orks, not so much..

Attack from range? COWARD!

How dare you accuse the Blood Angels of cowardice!!!

THIS MEANS WAR!!!

You do realize there are about, oh, 7000 of us, and, oh 1000 of you...

yeah, but the BA are so screwed up and semi-suicidal that that really doesn't matter. They're all going to die anyways...

Is this really relevant?

no, no it isn't.

We'll now return to our regularly scheduled programming.

Use some range to engage them because that's a good way to thin their numbers.

Anyways...
So I want:
1) Flamers
2) Termies
3) LRs
4) Blast weapons
6) Meltas (for battlewagons/walkers/STOMPAS!)

Let me give some Orky perspective about your list of things to use

1. We hate Flamers...they hurt like none other
2. We laugh at Termies. Only Nob/Biker Nob squads are scared of them. Large Boys mobs and Loota squads thin Termies down to where they are really no threat to our army as a whole.
3. Land Raiders are a joke to Orks now. Most players either field Rolla BWs or a Kanwall/Dreadbash...both types of lists will eat through LRs like they are Rhinos.
4. Blast weapons. We HATE large blast weapons if we are on foot, especially if we have to bunch up to get through terrrain features. Small blasts aren't very scary to us.
5. Meltas can be very scary to BWs, but the KFF helps.


So, to kill BW orks, you need speed to get to side armor and pop the AV 12, Meltas to pop it from the front, or assault ithem to pop AV10 rear. Of all of these, melee kills the BW best, as it avoids the KFF save; however, now you are stuck with 20 boys ready to assault you, that you cannot shoot first. So, bring what you need to kill BWs, as well as lots of flamers to kill boys.

To kill Kanwall orks, you need enough ranged AT fire that you can pop 9-11 walkers with a 4+ cover save...that is really hard for BT to pull off. Killing these walkers is vital, because all the boys are walking behind them with a 4+ cover save form the Kans.
If however, you can fire cover ignoring weapons at the boys behind the Kans, life will be alot better for you. This is where Whirlwinds really come into their own. MM/HF Speeders also help here, as they can get right in front of the kans, and flame the boys behind the wall. If you go 12", then the Kans also need 6s to hit the Speeders. Moving the speeders in front of the kans will also limit the Kans movement, forcing the Ork player out of his stompy gameplan.

So, from an Ork perspective, we hate it when BT/SMs use:
1. FLAMERS!
2. Whirlwinds
3. MM/HF Speeders...with a passion!
4. Large volume of fire, in any form
5. Anything that assaults us

What we love to face (so you should avoid using against us):
1. Small elite/expensive units
2. LRs
3. Longe range, single shot high powered weapons, such as lascannons
4. Anything we can assault, rather then be assaulted

Alerian wrote:Let me give some Orky perspective about your list of things to use

1. We hate Flamers...they hurt like none other
2. We laugh at Termies. Only Nob/Biker Nob squads are scared of them. Large Boys mobs and Loota squads thin Termies down to where they are really no threat to our army as a whole.
3. Land Raiders are a joke to Orks now. Most players either field Rolla BWs or a Kanwall/Dreadbash...both types of lists will eat through LRs like they are Rhinos.
4. Blast weapons. We HATE large blast weapons if we are on foot, especially if we have to bunch up to get through terrrain features. Small blasts aren't very scary to us.
5. Meltas can be very scary to BWs, but the KFF helps.


So, to kill BW orks, you need speed to get to side armor and pop the AV 12, Meltas to pop it from the front, or assault ithem to pop AV10 rear. Of all of these, melee kills the BW best, as it avoids the KFF save; however, now you are stuck with 20 boys ready to assault you, that you cannot shoot first. So, bring what you need to kill BWs, as well as lots of flamers to kill boys.

To kill Kanwall orks, you need enough ranged AT fire that you can pop 9-11 walkers with a 4+ cover save...that is really hard for BT to pull off. Killing these walkers is vital, because all the boys are walking behind them with a 4+ cover save form the Kans.
If however, you can fire cover ignoring weapons at the boys behind the Kans, life will be alot better for you. This is where Whirlwinds really come into their own. MM/HF Speeders also help here, as they can get right in front of the kans, and flame the boys behind the wall. If you go 12", then the Kans also need 6s to hit the Speeders. Moving the speeders in front of the kans will also limit the Kans movement, forcing the Ork player out of his stompy gameplan.

So, from an Ork perspective, we hate it when BT/SMs use:
1. FLAMERS!
2. Whirlwinds
3. MM/HF Speeders...with a passion!
4. Large volume of fire, in any form
5. Anything that assaults us

What we love to face (so you should avoid using against us):
1. Small elite/expensive units
2. LRs
3. Longe range, single shot high powered weapons, such as lascannons
4. Anything we can assault, rather then be assaulted

I disagree on some points here (I play as BT, and I often play against Orks):

Whirlwinds (and Thunderfire Cannons, even though you didn't mention them), which would be insanely good, are not in our codex.

Against boy hordes, lightning claw terminators with furious charge does wonders. Rerolling failed hits (you ARE using ATC,NMTO, yes?), AND wounds, with S5 I5 on the charge? Yes please!

Depending on what kind of misson you're playing, a drop pod with a Deathwind missile launcher can do wonder, since the BT pod can fire on the turn it lands. S5, lands close, ignores their armour save and uses a large blast marker. If you combine that with an assault cannon/heavy flamer dreadnought, you're gonna thin out any boy chunk. Dreadnoughts also handle kans pretty OK, considering that they have to hit you with a WS of 2, the fact that you can give 1 dread venerable and the fact that you've got the I advantage.

Sorry, I didn't know BT did not have access to the Whirlwind, my bad. I knew you didn't have the Thunder Fire, which is why I didn't mention it.

Deathwind pods do not work against good ork players, as the boys will usually either be inside a BW, or behind a Kanwall. A proper Kanwall will not leave you any space to place a pod in a location that will give you a good shot. Whenever I run my Kanwall, my podding opponents usually mention that they wish they brought Rhinos, since they still had to drop in front of the Kans, not behind with the boys..

As for the WS 2 of Kans vs a Dread...Kans only need 4+ to hit, just like another Dread would. The benefit the BT dread gets against kans is striking first and needing 3+ to hit. But, if you pod him in, then the Kans get the charge for bonus attacks...not good for the Dread. Then again, if you do manage to get behind the Kanwall with the drop pod, the ork player could just shooot the dread with Lootas, or hit it with Boys+ Nob PK, and let the Kans continue marching forward.

LC Termies are NOT good vs Orks....at least not good ork lists such as BW or Kanwall.

Termies need a LR to get across the table and the tank will either get ran over by the Rolla or crunched by Kans. LC termies have a hard time with BWs period, and an even worse time against Kans, since they cannot hurt the Kans outside of a Furious Charge turn. As for the I5 on on the Termies...Orks just plain don't care, since boys always go last against BT/SM anyway.

Yes, if the LC Termies get the charge, the Orks are hosed...then again, if the Orks get charged by any BT unit, they are pretty much hosed, since they need Furious Charge to get to S4....

This means that a large Crusader squad will get you far more bang for the buck than a LC Termie squad...more wounds, more attacks, more shots, and they will still go before the boys, too! Not to mention, when the Nob stikes back with his hidden PK, losing some normal marines will hurt a whole lot less than losing a good chunk of your expensive Termie squad.

Yeah, template weapons are great against swarm armies. However, in general, wouldn't a land raider crusader chew through orks like a blowtorch through a piece of aluminum foil?

How bought Vindicators? or do you not have those either?

Crusaders are great for orks.

Grey Templar wrote:How bought Vindicators? or do you not have those either?

Crusaders are great for orks.

Now I feel ashamed. How in the name of the Emprah could I forget vindicators? >.< They're the OBVIOUS answer, since they can screw over both kans and boyz with ease.

Also, @Alerian, regarding the LC termies, you'd obviously take a TH/SS termie to prevent being tarpitted by kans, and for killing things like BWs. Also, our drop pods don't have the "half of you lot arrive on the first turn" rule, they simply work as a glorified deepstrike, but it'd take one hell of a lot of effort to make sure that the drop pod didn't land close to where it'd have to be. Consider that the Kan wall moves forward, leaving a hole behind itself, and the fact that DPs don't mishap when they scatter into people. Ass. Can/HF dreadnought in drop pod against the rear of the wall will at least stall him long enough for you to get more shots in with a las/plas squad or a Laspredator. The assault cannon has 4 shots, which against the rear of a BW does something on a 4+, and they've got rending. Sure, the wagons will have a cover save, but I'd say you still have a fair bet at taking it down. Hell, even the heavy flamer can damage a BW's rear if you manage to DP close enough, and templates ignore cover saves, yes?

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:How bought Vindicators? or do you not have those either?

Crusaders are great for orks.

Now I feel ashamed. How in the name of the Emprah could I forget vindicators? >.< They're the OBVIOUS answer, since they can screw over both kans and boyz with ease.

Also, @Alerian, regarding the LC termies, you'd obviously take a TH/SS termie to prevent being tarpitted by kans, and for killing things like BWs. Also, our drop pods don't have the "half of you lot arrive on the first turn" rule, they simply work as a glorified deepstrike, but it'd take one hell of a lot of effort to make sure that the drop pod didn't land close to where it'd have to be. Consider that the Kan wall moves forward, leaving a hole behind itself, and the fact that DPs don't mishap when they scatter into people. Ass. Can/HF dreadnought in drop pod against the rear of the wall will at least stall him long enough for you to get more shots in with a las/plas squad or a Laspredator. The assault cannon has 4 shots, which against the rear of a BW does something on a 4+, and they've got rending. Sure, the wagons will have a cover save, but I'd say you still have a fair bet at taking it down. Hell, even the heavy flamer can damage a BW's rear if you manage to DP close enough, and templates ignore cover saves, yes?

I am sorry, I do not know how they play over on your side of the ocean, but here in the US, your plan seems pretty flawed. Not much of anything you suggested will work against even the most average of Ork players, let alone the best. It may just be a difference of the meta games in our two countries, but Ork players over here do not fear any small eite unit....it is mass firepower and getting assaulted that killls Orks over here.

Good Ork players are prepared for pods, and can smack Dreads around like they are tissue paper. A good kanwall player will not give you a decent place to place a pod behind his lines, because he can spread his boys out so that there is no place to fit the model on the table, at least not anywhere taht it will be effective. It isn't a matter of mishap, it is a matter of actually fitting the model on the table. Also, Dreads die fast to Lootas, and over here, Ork players tend to bring them in spades. Also, you want as many guns on the table aginst Orks, so leaving things like Dreads in pods in reserve only hurt your chances of winning, as you need to be firing that Assault cannon turn one, not waiting for it to arrive until turn 2,3, or later.

Earlier you said that LC termies were good against Orks, and I was pointing out why this isn't true. LC termies are bad beyond extreme over here, because almost every good Ork list will be Kanwall or BWs, which they are nearly useless against..that is my point. Also, as I pointed out already, a large Crusader squad will killl more boys in CC than a LC Termie squad, especially if they get the assault....and the Crusader squad is scoring...

In short, BT only have one really good option against a good Ork player...load up large Crusader squads in LRCs, move straight into the Ork Lines, and make dang sure you get the assault. Also, you should use MM/HF Speeders to punch holes in the Kanwall/BWs in order to make sure you can get to the boys, as well as keeping the BWs/Kans from getting to your LRCs. Preds, Termies, and Dreads only take valuable points and put them into sub par anti-ork units...don't take them; you will be sorry. Vindis are OK, but they take up valuable points that will probably be better spent getting more/larger Crusader squads and their transports.

pie_2054 wrote:Yeah, template weapons are great against swarm armies. However, in general, wouldn't a land raider crusader chew through orks like a blowtorch through a piece of aluminum foil?

Nice metaphor.

I can tell you this works awesomely from actually fighting against it. My brother made a dev squad with all heavy bolters and a bland sgt. Its super cheap, and packs a CRAP LOAD of fire power. Sure its not that fantastic against tougher vehicles (but youll smke trukks for sure) but this unit will make Orks go the way of the dodo bird. I had some nobs + big KFF in a trukk, haul ass up to his lines. I got into CC but once the nobz ate whatever it was they were fighting, they were in the open against that dev unit. By the time they made it to the dev squad (2 turns) I took some real damage from those things, and that was a nobs mob with all the wound allocation I could muster. Against normal boyz forget about it, they wont even get saves.
Thats the biggest paragraph Ive ever wrote I think


But yes, the key to taking out Orks, is really knowing ahead of time what the Ork player prefers. If they are trukks and wagons, make sure you have alot of missile launchers and the like to pop the trukks first, then take your time with the BW. If they like the horde, take as many shots as you can muster. The all H bolter unit really does a number, but again, missile launchers are great against Orks, they have a template OR can smoke vehicles. If they are shooty, get in there as fast as possible so you dont have to stare at 120 dice hitting the table.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Ass. Can/HF dreadnought in drop pod against the rear of the wall will at least stall him long enough for you to get more shots in with a las/plas squad or a Laspredator. The assault cannon has 4 shots, which against the rear of a BW does something on a 4+, and they've got rending.

This might be a little of topic, but...
This is the scenario: X=Podding dread w/HF and assault cannon BB= a Battlewagon O=Ork boyz

BB


O O
O O O O
O O O
O
X


You shoot the assault cannon at the Battlewagon. Could you then shoot the Heavy Flamer "officially" at the Battlewagon, but with the intention of frying Boyz? Even if it doesn't hit the Battlewagon at all?

Mount your Tacticals with (flamer, combi-flamer) into Rhinos so that you can take on large mobz by a concerted attack.

Ziggy Stardust wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Ass. Can/HF dreadnought in drop pod against the rear of the wall will at least stall him long enough for you to get more shots in with a las/plas squad or a Laspredator. The assault cannon has 4 shots, which against the rear of a BW does something on a 4+, and they've got rending.

This might be a little of topic, but...
This is the scenario: X=Podding dread w/HF and assault cannon BB= a Battlewagon O=Ork boyz

BB


O O
O O O O
O O O
O
X


You shoot the assault cannon at the Battlewagon. Could you then shoot the Heavy Flamer "officially" at the Battlewagon, but with the intention of frying Boyz? Even if it doesn't hit the Battlewagon at all?

Yes.

even if the boyz were off to the side of the dread you could have the flamer pointed in their direction as the rule for templates simply says "place the template with the small end touching the firing model and the large end over as many enemy models as possable without touching friendly models"

Ziggy Stardust wrote:You shoot the assault cannon at the Battlewagon. Could you then shoot the Heavy Flamer "officially" at the Battlewagon, but with the intention of frying Boyz? Even if it doesn't hit the Battlewagon at all?

No...Grey Templar gave you wrong info...

If the Template can't reach the BW, then it is a miss and cannot hit the boys either. Period.
Also, you cannot aim the Template in a different dirrection than the BW, since you must cover as many models in the targeted unit as possible with the template, thus forcing you to aim it at the BW to begin with. It is in the middle of the sentence of the rule he mentioned on page 29; however he convienently left that part out.

Now, if you can hit the BW with the template, while also hitting the boys, then it is all good