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First one is pretty straight forward. Under the Tyranid spore pod's entry for options it says "Take one of the following" with no inclusion of the usual "May" that every other entry has. Is the Spod Required to take one of the extra guns?

Second one is more convoluted. If you have a Squadron of two vehicles, and one of them uses Smoke Launchers, do they both count as Obscured because of the unit majority rule?

1) No, they are "Options". It does not say you must take one, so you stick to the header as key word.

2) Yes. And I never thought of this. But will be doing it when I need to from now on.

1) Terrible wording.

In the past mandatory option selections have used "must" while optional ones have used "may".

What are we supposed to make of neither? After skimming some other codexes I'm inclined to agree with ICB - since it's under options then it is option (compare to the eldar codex which has the mandatory gun selection for vehicles not under the option heading).

2) ICB has it right again - this is why two is the optimal squadron size!

1) No. As pointed out, they are Option. By Definition, they are Optional, unless otherwise stated with a "Must", as in the case of, for example, Long Fangs.

2) Yes, the whole squadron gets the cover save. Intentional or not, it's nice to balance out the fragility of them (since they can be wrecked on a Glance )

See now, I disagree with the Smoke Launchers.

A unit counts as being in cover if half or more of it's members are in cover.

A vehicle in cover counts as being obscured.

I can't find anything that says if you're obscured you count as being in cover, or that if 50% of your models are obscured they all count as obscured.

See the vehicle rules, page 62, which states that you are "in cover" if you are obscured.

Edit: you then see the rules for cover whcih states if half the unit or more is in cover, the entire unit counts as in cover.

Actually you have it backwards, page 62 states that if you are in cover, you are said to be obscured.

Page 22 says that if half of a unit or more is in cover then they all count as in cover.

What I can't find is anything that says that if half the unit is Obscured, but not In Cover, than the rest gets the benefit. Or a rule that says Obscured equals In Cover.

As one person at the FLGS put it, a Square (In Cover) is always a Rhombus (Obscured), but a Rhombus is not always a Square.

*Cracks knuckles*
I'd expect better from all of you! Read dammit!

"takes any cover saves available to the squadron – use the rules for vehicles to determine if
each squadron member is in cover (ignoring other members of the squadron," Page 64

So by following the process described on page 64 just above my quoted text and below it too you'll discover that one can assign glance/pen to any vehicle of your choosing but not each vehicle will have the cover save - it is worked out discreetly!

the age old is it obscured then it gets cover but not the other way around argument.

If one pops smoke, then one is obscured, by being obscured the model is 50% or more in cover. For vehicles it is only permitted to make use of the cover save if it is obscured, so the one who popped smoke can.

The other vehicle gets the cover save because 50% of the unit is in cover, however, because it is not obscured, it does not get to use that cover save.

This argument has been made over and over, normally to do with one of the SW's librarians powers, storm if i recall.

If insaniak sees this, i expect it to be locked

SOOO if my KFF covers two of my Kans then the third kan that out of range gets one too???

KFF has different wording. KFF makes a whole unit in cover regardless of if half are covered by the KFF or not.

Smashotron wrote:KFF has different wording. KFF makes a whole unit in cover regardless of if half are covered by the KFF or not.

But it says vehicles with in 6" are obscured and units get a +5 cover save? which is it for a squadron???

General_Chaos wrote:

Smashotron wrote:KFF has different wording. KFF makes a whole unit in cover regardless of if half are covered by the KFF or not.

But it says vehicles with in 6" are obscured and units get a +5 cover save? which is it for a squadron???

Squadron is of vehicles.

so vehicles within 6" are obscured and can use the 5+ cover save they have been given.

the unit of vehicles in a squadron get a 5+ cover save, but only those vehicles within 6" of the KFF are permitted to use it.

remember, theres two check points for a vehicle to use a cover save... these are, does it have the cover save? is it obscured?
Obscured gives cover, but cover does not give obscured.

Seriphis wrote:the age old is it obscured then it gets cover but not the other way around argument.

If one pops smoke, then one is obscured, by being obscured the model is 50% or more in cover. For vehicles it is only permitted to make use of the cover save if it is obscured, so the one who popped smoke can.

The other vehicle gets the cover save because 50% of the unit is in cover, however, because it is not obscured, it does not get to use that cover save.

This argument has been made over and over, normally to do with one of the SW's librarians powers, storm if i recall.

If insaniak sees this, i expect it to be locked

Individual vehicles within a squadron do not get cover saves - either the whole unit does or it does not. We are told to use majority saves as per infantry units.

So, if 2 of 3 vehicles (or 1 of 2) qualify for a save then all members of the squadron receive it.

Scott-S6 wrote:
Individual vehicles within a squadron do not get cover saves - either the whole unit does or it does not. We are told to use majority saves as per infantry units.

Wrong, please read threads properly.

Here's the quote you need btw.

ChrisCP wrote:
"takes any cover saves available to the squadron – use the rules for vehicles to determine if
each squadron member is in cover (ignoring other members of the squadron," Page 64

When quoting a rule you need to include the entire rule, not just the first part.

as Chris has correctly pointed out, vehicles do not follow the same rules as infantry for cover.

Read the whole rule, not just what you think applies to it.

Sure they all get the cover save, but only when the vehicle is obscured does it ever get to USE it, and that applies PER vehicle.

I assume that every poster has acess to their own rule book - Incase someone has any doubt as to what I'm saying I include a page reference to point them at the spot more efficently than their index would.

I also try to avoid posting superfluous information - Cut to the meat of the matter. Rather than, you know, quoting, whole sections of text from the rule book, like what, you know, we are trying to avoid.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That was directed towards Steelmage99 and others who would want me to 'quote the whole rule'(book)

You seem to purposely avoid the second part of the rule.

Its not even another sentence. You just cut the sentence in half and keep the one you like.

Maybe it is because I have misunderstood you.

When determining whether a squadron is in cover or not you first apply the 50%-rule to individual vehicle models to determine whether the individual vehicle models are in cover, then you use this information to determine (using the rules for normal units) whether the entire squadron get to use coversaves .

Do you disagree with any particular part?

Steelmage99 wrote:
When determining whether a squadron is in cover or not you first apply the 50%-rule to individual vehicle models to determine whether the individual vehicle models are in cover, then you use this information to determine (using the rules for normal units) whether the entire squadron get to use coversaves.

No I don't think we are in contention - then ignoring other members of the squadron *This is where I cut the rule as it goes into detail on just how one ignores other members of the squadron ie. non-essential information for people owning the rule book.

I'm off for the day time to go socialise ^_^

"Use the rules for vehicles to determine if each squadron member is in cover" "and then the rules for normal units to work out if the entire squadron is in cover or not"

So, we check each vehicle to see if they qualify for a cover save (obscured, cover effect+obscured, whatever) and then use the normal rules to see if the entire unit gets a save (1 of 2 or 2 of 3 qualify - whole unit gets the save).

ChrisCP - I suggest that you read the entire rule first, the second clause (which you didn't bother quoting) is the crucial one.

Scott-S6 wrote:

Individual vehicles within a squadron do not get cover saves - either the whole unit does or it does not. We are told to use majority saves as per infantry units.

!Found it!
It was this bit that stuffed me up, I didn't read it carefuly (naughty naughty) thought you were saying that we don't work out the individual saves - I don't know how my brain managed to magle the rest >_<
I agree with what you guys were saying and thought you were saying something else etc etc... of course I can see this bringing rise to the great 'a Majority can be something that is not greater than a half of the total' thing.

Yes, if half of a squadron is In Cover, they all count as In Cover, but where in the rules does it say that if half of a unit is Obscured, but not In Cover, do they all count as Obscured? Or baring that, where does it say that Obscured equals In Cover?

It doesnt need to, as you follow the rules for infantry which means they then all count as obscured...

Except the infantry rules say nothing about counting as Obscured. They say if half the unit is In Cover, they all count as In Cover. Smoke Launchers don't make you In Cover, they make you Obscured. Where is the rule that say if half the unit is Obscured, then they all count as Obscured?

Aduro, why did you bother to ask if you had already made up your mind on what the answer is?

Because I haven't memorized the entire rulebook word for word, cover to cover, or all the FAQs and want to make sure I didn't miss something. I checked the pages that should have the answer, but sometimes things can get mentioned in odd places.

However, it's looking like I didn't miss anything.

A model which is obscured gets a cover save.

If half the models in the unit are in cover (get a cover save) the whole unit gets it.

You can argue that being in cover and getting a cover save are different if you want.

The problem, as usual, is the rules, not anyone's individual interpretation.

The steps for checking vehicle cover differ depending on how you're getting it.

Normal method:

Are you in cover? Yes!

How much cover? Is it more than 50%? Yes!

You count as being "In cover!"

This grants you "obscured!"

Congratulations, as an obscured unit you get a 4+ cover save!

Smoke launchers method:

Did you fire your smoke launchers? Yes!

Congratulations, you count as Obscured, and get a 4+ cover save!

We've encountered before the question of whether having a cover save actually allows you to use it. Here the question is whether or not having a cover save and being "in cover" are the same thing. With the smoke launchers (or disruption pods) test, we never check to see if the squadron is "in cover", we only look and see one of them counts as obscured. There is no reason, in the rules, to work backwards and say "well, if you're obscured, you must be "in cover". Qualifying for a cover save and being "in cover" are not the same thing, as far as I can tell.

But Smoke Launchers don't give you cover. At all. They are a piece of wargear that grants you "Obscured" status, regardless of the fact that you AREN'T "in cover". There is specific mention of such circumstances in the rulebook.

That being so, NOBODY is "in cover", and so the whole piece about determining which part of the unit is in cover is irrelevant. The obscured vehicles get a save; the others don't.