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So As I've read the rules I read it that any hit that would or could allow an armor save grants you feel no pain. I like to use the terminator test can a terminator armor make the 2+ save yes or no if yes then you get feel no pain. My friend is saying that if for example your playing orcs with a painboy and the squad gets hit by a bunch of ap 4 weapons you wouldn't get any saves because the ap 4 weapons wouldn't give that squad an armor save. Just for clarification can anyone tell me how it is for sure?

By RAW your friend is wrong.

"Neither can it be used against wounds from AP1 and AP2 weapons, power weapons and any other wound against which no armour save can ever be taken..."

While that particular unit may not be able to take an armor save against it, a unit with a +3 save can.

An AP4 weapon does not completely negate armor saves, so you've get it. If it were as your friend tries to claim, then they would not have had to specify AP1 and AP2 weapons ignore it.

IMHO, the whole "weapons that ignore armor" line is in reference to close combat weapons such as Power Weapons and the like, as all of it's examples are CC weapons.

Yes, the key word in the phrase is 'no armour save can ever be taken' (emphasis mine)

Basically, any weapon that stipulates that it ignores all armour saves, whatever they are, will negate FNP. An autocannon with AP4 does not ignore all armour saves and therefore does not negate FNP.

Aduro wrote:An AP4 weapon does not completely negate armor saves, so you've get it. If it were as your friend tries to claim, then they would not have had to specify AP1 and AP2 weapons ignore it.

IMHO, the whole "weapons that ignore armor" line is in reference to close combat weapons such as Power Weapons and the like, as all of it's examples are CC weapons.

It can also refer to things like Wind of Chaos (iirc) that are shooting attacks that do not allow armour saves.

But yeah, AP4 does not negate FNP, as Armour saves COULD be taken against it at some point by something. AP2 negates it because (as well as being explicitly listed) nothing can ever take an armour save against it.

You also negate FNP when an attack doubles your toughness, even if you get an armour save. For instance, the blast from a Storm Eagle Rocket is S10 but only AP4. So if you hit Plague Marines with it, they would get their 3+ armour save but then not be able to take FNP because their toughness is only 4(5).

ooh ooh I have a chart!

FNP vs AP - = Yes
FNP vs AP 6 = Yes
FNP vs AP 5 = Yes
FNP vs AP 4 = Yes
FNP vs AP 3 = Yes
FNP vs AP 2 = No
FNP vs AP 1 = No
FNP vs Tx2 = No
FNP vs Instant Death = No
FNP vs Strength (Destroyer) = No
FNP vs Power weapons/fists/klaws = No
FNP vs No retreat = Yes
FNP vs Gets Hot = Yes
FNP vs Perils of the warp = No
FNP vs Demon Weapon rolls of 1 = No
FNP vs Dangerous Terrain = No
FNP vs "do(es) not allow armor save(s) to be taken against" = No
FNP vs "ignore(s) armor saves" = No
FNP vs “with no armor save(s) allowed” = No
FNP vs “counts/treated as a power weapon” = Np


Someone let me know if I missed anything or misworded anything.

Edit: cleaned up the chart a bit

FNP vs Wounds that cause "Instant Death" = No. (Interestingly enough, that's technically why Destroyer Weapons do not allow FNP, because they all cause ID)

They are also ALL AP2 or AP1, which negates FNP directly.

Gandair wrote:ooh ooh I have a chart!

FNP vs AP - = Yes
FNP vs AP 6 = Yes
FNP vs AP 5 = Yes
FNP vs AP 4 = Yes
FNP vs AP 3 = Yes
FNP vs AP 2 = No
FNP vs AP 1 = No
FNP vs Tx2 = No
FNP vs Strength (Destroyer) = No
FNP vs Power weapons/fists/klaws = No
FNP vs No retreat = Yes
FNP vs Gets Hot = Yes
FNP vs Perils of the warp = No
FNP vs Demon Weapon rolls of 1 = No
FNP vs Dangerous Terrain = No
FNP vs Wounds that "do not allow armor save(s) to be taken against" = No
FNP vs Wounds that "ignore(s) armor saves" = No
FNP vs Weapons or rules that cause wounds “with no armor save(s) allowed” = No

Someone let me know if I missed anything or misworded anything.

How about Rending?

If you get hit with a Rend it counts as an AP 2 wound if I am not mistaken...therefore it would ignore Feel No Pain.

Rending shooting counts as AP2, and Rending Close Combat ignores armour, so both negate FNP

does rending allow any armor saves? I think not.

I figured as much...just wanted to state it for the purpose of adding it to his list.

nosferatu1001 wrote:They are also ALL AP2 or AP1, which negates FNP directly.

Well, not the Rock 'em Boyz asset in Apocalypse Reload. That one has no listed AP value but is still destroyer.

ductvader wrote:I figured as much...just wanted to state it for the purpose of adding it to his list.

Rending is on the list, it's one of those "counts as power weapon" things. If I were to list EVERY piece of wargear, upgrade, or effect that ignored FNP this list would be very long. There's certain phrases that are common throughout descriptions. Wounds cause by rending attacks "count as wounds from a power weapon".

thebetter1 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:They are also ALL AP2 or AP1, which negates FNP directly.

Well, not the Rock 'em Boyz asset in Apocalypse Reload. That one has no listed AP value but is still destroyer.

Knew I shouldnt have posted that - although the Apoc book DOES suggest no armour saves ever....

was just reading through this topic and had another question about fnp

on pg 20 of the brb it says if you get hit with a weapon that is equal to or lower than your save you are unable to take an armor save at all...now how would that take place if fnp says you dont get fnp in which no armor save can be taken such as the original post scenario?

You're question doesn't quite make sense, but guessing at what you mean, you need to read the FNP rule again. Just because you have a 5+ save and are shot with a bolter doesn't mean FNP is negated.

ah alrighty...figured i was missin somethin and sorry for not being so clear