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Hi, just wondering if there are any glaring faults you guys see with these army lists here:

HQ
'El: TL Flamer + MP ; HWMT [73]

Elites
[Empty]

Troops
9x Fire Warriors [90]
9x Fire Warriors [90]

Fast Attack
1x Piranha: BC; FD, DP, TA [80]
1x Piranha: BC; FD, DP, TA [80]

Heavy Support
1x Broadside: SMS; TA [80]


Piranha are used to drop cover for most of my units, provide cover, and attempt to whittle down the numbers of enemy infantry and light armor.

I'm not sure how effective this army list would be (if any) in a 500 point game.
Also, should I try to fit some Kroot in instead of the second set of Fire Warriors?

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1500 point army:

HQ
'O: TL Flamer + MP; HWTL, Iridium Armor, HWDC: Shield Drones 2x [148]


Elites
2x XV8: TL Flamer + MP [86]

Troops
10x Fire Warriors: [100]
- 1x DevilFish: SMS; DP, MT, TA [120]
10x Fire Warriors: [100]
20x Kroot [140]

Fast Attack
6x Pathfinders [72]
-Devilfish: Gun Drone; DP [85]
Piranha: BC; DP, Seeker, FD [85]
Piranha: BC; DP, Seeker, FD [85]

Heavy Support
Sky Ray: SMS; DP, MT, TA [165]
2x XV88: SMS; TA [160]
Railhead: BC; DP [155]

I think I could use some help with this one as well... I'm ONE point over the 1.5k mark if I did my math correctly. Are there any outstanding weaknesses or things I should look out for in 1.5k games?
Thanks!

Okay... in the first list there were a couple of things.

For one, this is 500 pts., do you think a broadside will be necessary? Really... the most you will probably get are some transports, and your commander could have a fun time taking them out. If that isn't enough, by all means take the broadside.

Your tactics with the pirhanas would work to some degree, but for the same points as they currently are you could get two devilfish and save your fire warriors from even more punishment.

Also, your commander is slightly redundant. A multi-tracker only enables you to fire two non-twin linked weapon systems, and so I would just get rid of the Multi Tracker, or un-twin link the flamer.

For your second list,

Sky Rays are generally never taken, they tend to be horrible for their points value. For 165 pts., you could get quite a few battlesuits that would deal far more damage, and last longer.

For your railhead, I usually get a MT and TL, because then I can fire after moving longer distances and split fire between the burst cannons and railgun, both things are nice and significantly improve the effectiveness of the hammerhead.

People usually like putting Fusion Blaster on Pranhas because it is cheap to do so, and you have a fast vehicle that can zoom to see the rear armor of another vehicle and then blow it up. Tau already have a lot of S5 AP 5, so it is unnecessary to have the burst cannons.

A broadside would be a little much to put in on your 500 list. Use those 80 points for something else that would build up your forces some more.

For the 500 list:

I don't think it is good at all. Flamers are generally bad on Crisis teams unless you plan on suiciding them and with only 1 suit you can't afford to do that.

The piranhas are poor at this points level and for 80 points you could just mech up both your FW teams. I;d say mech up 1 FW team consider taking kroot instead of the other dump both the PIranhas and plow the rest of the points into suits with plasma rifles or missile pods (preferabbly both).

As for the 1500 point list:

Again the flamer MP suit choice is very poor and not suited to Tau at all. Search on the net for Deathrain, Helios and Fire knife they really are the top configs for suits. You also need far more suits.

I'd split the Kroot into 2 units if you plan on using them as a screen.

Seeker missiles are poor unless you totally spam them and have enough marker lights to fire all of them in 1 turn. I'd dump them. Piranha's should take fusion blasters every time (and thus a TA as well).

Your heavy support is unfortunately a mess. Railhead needs a Multitraker at all times without fail. target locks and FDs can be added to flavour but the MT is as much a given as the DP.

Skyrays are awful they are made from the same stuff as Ethereals and Vespids and should never be part of a Tau army that intends to actually win a game.

The TA on the broadsides is ace and something you will use every turn. However when you roll DoW deployment you are up against it at the best of times without the ASS and only 1 hammerhead to take the fight to the enemy you may as well give up there and then. Unfortunately the ASS is a necessary evil on the broadsides because of how badly DoW screws over the Tau. The other necessary evil is shield drones without them your broadsides will get ID in the face turn 1 every time, particularly in your army where the only other real threat comes from 1 tank.

Unfortunately if you want your Tau to be effective you have to cookie cutter.

oh, there's a lot of good points floating around:

500 List:
About the Broadside: that's quite true... it's pretty overkill at that points range.
To replace it: should I get...

1. More troops (Kroot?)
2. A suit or two (2x Heatwave with MP?)?
3. Vanilla Devilfish?

and yes, I'll definitely have to change the commander up.


but I'm a tad confused: why are piranha poor at 500? Regarding front armor, only S5 shots can hit it, IIRC... which not a lot of armies have for cheap....
They are a tad expensive, but aren't they a lot more resilient? (or am I not seeing something?)

1500:
Yeah, for what my commander's trying to do (Shield'o) it definitely shouldn't be a flamer type. Deathrain seems to be the best option then.


The Kroot unit was large so I can use it as a deepstriking/Outflanking sweeping unit, good for assaults and the like, but having two units seems to improve tactical flexibility somewhat. I might have to cut a few of them anyways to fit in the other suggestions though =o



I KNEW I forgot something on the Railhead! (*Fixes*)
Broadsides: I understand the ASS gives nice mobility,

Another question: Why are sky rays that bad?

for the 165 points I get:
2 Markerlights and an SMS on a mobile platform that will probably not get blown to bits. (Seeker missiles are an added bonus I guess?)

is it volume of fire over defensive capability?

I see that I can definitely use more fusion blasters. At 5 points per piranha, that's pretty cheap and threatening. With the way I'm using them right now, it makes quite a lot more sense to use them with Fusion Blasters, and removes their dependance on markerlights.(*fixes*) It WILL reduce my volume of fire and decrease their threat radius slightly, but I'll try to patch it up from somewhere else.

Thanks!


Edit: Fixed/tweaked 500 list somewhat.
HQ
'El: CIB, Plasma Rifle, TA, HWMT (Centurion) [100]

Elites:
2x XV8: TL Flamer, BSF; [68]

Troops:
6x FW [60]
- DF: BC, GD; DP, MT, FD [105]

9x FW [90]

FA:
Piranha: BC, GD; FD, DP [75]


General edits:
Broadside turned into two Heatwave suits, and spare parts for the Commander to upgrade his weapons. (Centurion)
One of the Piranhas got upgraded into a Devilfish.

Haven't gotten around to fixing the 1500 list yet...

Doublepost:

Here's a revised version of my 1500:

HQ:
'O: CIB, MP, MT; HWTL, Iridium Armor, HWDC + 2SD, Stims, [172]

Elites:
3x XV8: TL Flamer, MP [129]

Troops:
10x Fire Warrior: Rifle [100]
- DF: Drones; DP, MT [95]
9x Fire Warrior: Rifle [90]
10x Kroot [70]

Fast Attack:
6x PF [72]
- DF: BC, GD; DP [85]
Piranha: Fusion; DP, FD, TA [85]
Piranha: Fusion; DP, FD, TA [85]

Heavy Support:
Ionhead:SMS; TL, MT, DP, FD [155]
Railhead: SMS; DP, MT, TL [180]
2x Broadsides: Plasma; TA [180]

Works out to 1498 points...
C&C?

but I'm a tad confused: why are piranha poor at 500?

Because you won't be facing landraiders that you need to block assault range of...

Broadsides: I understand the ASS gives nice mobility,

Sort of but still not great. ASS isn't great but in 1 in 3 games you'll roll DoW and without ASS on the braodsides there really is no point in even un packing your models, as I said it is a necessary evil.

for the 165 points I get:
2 Markerlights and an SMS on a mobile platform that will probably not get blown to bits.

If you think 165 points is a good deal for 2 MLs and an SMS then I really don't even know where to begin. Seriously Skyrays are awful, Hammerheads will out perform them every time. Seeker missiles are poor and only of budious value if you completely spam them for a turn 1 alphastrike. But even then there are better ways to spend your points.

To your new 500 list:

Shas'el is pretty good.

Flamers are still a poor choice on the crisis suits and TL flamers with BSF filters is just bizarre, increase your night fighting vision for a weapon that fires a template? why? Replace them with a fireknife.

Replace the DP on the PIranha with a fusion blaster. You should be moving fast enough to get a cover save anyway and if not you should be firing the FB so will be within 12". The DP is almost always a waste on Pirnahas.

I'd also put back the broadside (I take 2 at 500 points). It will ruin transports and ID that Warboss or T5 mega character someone has brought for giggles...

As for the 1500 list:

Commander is far too expensive. Always go with an el.

Flamewr will never be a good option on crisis teams seriously look up the configs I named earlier they really are the only ones worth bothering with unless you are an expert and even then most will go with fireknife.

I'd probably reduce the numbers in the FW suqads, you need better suits.

You need more MLs.

Put both Piranhas in the same squad, then you'll get real value from your FD, drop at leats 1 preferably both DP from them.

Ionheads are cool but railheads rea unfortunately just better. Your railhead is 170 points it is 180 if you add FD.

Never bother with the plasma on the broadsides, you want them as your rail gun providers plasmas just detratc from that. If you want plasma put it on Crisis teams! I'd also advise a sheild drone or 2 on them for survivability.

TL Flamers and BSF are the absolute cheapest option for a team of Crisis.. It's pretty hard to trim points at the 500 level, but I can try.

The fusion blaster kind of radically changes the role of the Piranha then, and makes it kind of odd with the scenarios you present. =x

The only reason I see taking fusion is against units with higher AVs, which would be larger tanks and whatnot. Otherwise, it seems like the BC serves its purpose (including larger shot volume).


For the 1500 list:

I can try to fit fireknives in, but fireknives are pretty much double the cost of the Flamer units. BSF is in there because I don't have enough points to put in anything else.

the Major problem with my 1500 is that I don't have enough points.

Reducing Kroot and shrinking to minimum Fire Warrior numbers, I get 140 points, which can barely fit a pair of FWs, but severely decreases my objectivegrabbing capability.

Getting my SMSs back on the Broadsides in addition to minimizing my troops, I have 160 points to play around with.

this is JUST enough for a SMT (adds markerlights and a few suits), or two Crisis. (or 3 man Flamer teams with some change left over)


I know I don't have enough markerlights, but that's what my skyray was attempting to solve. (and probably failing miserably)

I'm pretty much at a loss to what I should do now.


Also about the Piranha: I know that the DPs do nothing within 12, but beyond 12 they work at all times, right? If I'm shooting at something from under 12 inches or less at rear armor, I know I won't get cover from my Target. But, depending on placement, I would still have cover against all their other units?


and wow: 2 broadsides in a 500 game: @_@ Absolute cheapest is 146 points. Filling out FoC at minimum, that's 325 points. Where does the 175 left go? (I assume there's slightly less to play with since absolute minimum means the 'el gets flamers and the Broadsides get BSF)

That's actually kind of interesting...
Does Double broadside work in a 500 game? (Simply curious)

I know I can't fit the units I want into my army at 500 (See above) but managing two broadsides is quite interesting. How does your list go?

Here's whatI'd do with the points:

Dump:

7 Fire warriors (keep the 6 permanently in the devilfishes and the difference between having 6 and 10 is negliable). - 70

MT on Devilfish. - 10

Plasma on Broadsides. - 20

DPs on Piranhas (make them, into 1 squad of 2). - 10

3 x Crisis TL Flamers - 18

CIB on 'o, make him an El with targeting array dump Iridum armour and stim - 60

That gives you 198 pooints to play with.

Then I'd take:

4 Pathfinders (gives you 2 squads of 5) - 48

AFP for 'El - 20

2 x Plasmas and 2 x MT for Crisis - 50

Add crisis suit with tl MP and TA, added TA and TLing to MP on 3rd Crisis - 69

Then I'd swap your 2 hammwerheads for 2 170 build Railheads. That gives you far more MLs and far more firepower.

That's actually kind of interesting...
Does Double broadside work in a 500 game? (Simply curious)

Ever played against duel Serpent Eldar at 500 points? I have the broadsides did VERY well. I run them at 180 points as they are both team leaders with TA and MT (or ASS and MT depending on my mood at 500 points your opponent will be less mobile so the ASS is less important for DoW). Obviously against Horde they fail hard (I sometimes run a Railhead instead). The list is pretty minimal but quite changeable. Normally 1 unit of FWs and 1 of kroot. Sometimes I through a load of points into an unstoppable Shas'o just so he can be a fire magnet at 500 points, other times I run him more minimal with a Monat or 2 in support. I tend to go brightwind (Plasma and Burstcannon) at 500 points as AT is more than covered for by the Broadfsides so I prefer the extra shots.

Also about the Piranha: I know that the DPs do nothing within 12, but beyond 12 they work at all times, right? If I'm shooting at something from under 12 inches or less at rear armor, I know I won't get cover from my Target. But, depending on placement, I would still have cover against all their other units?

Yes this is how they work in practice the 12" if you're that close to the enemies lines will mean whatever he wants to shoot at you will be with 18" (as they'll be able to move 6" and fire at you, maybe more dependant on what you're up against). Seriously try them and count how many times you use the cover save from them that you wouldn't have got anyway from being obscured or moving fast (my guess from experience about once every 4-5 games).

@Daimou43:
I take it that you own the piranha models? Thus clinging to them?

Well, the best low-point tau list is min FW inna Warfish and kroot plus around 4 FireStorms, not FKs, but BC/MP/MT. You can have 3 FSs for the points of those two piranhas, and more than twice the firepower (considering MisPod STR and AP). 6 shots from your 2 piranhas versus 3 BCs + 3 MPs, 9 + 6= 15 dice.

FSs are gods in low point games, especially Combat Patrol.