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Ok, played a guard player the other day who fielded a squadron of 3 Sentinels.

Basically i managed to hit them from behind with 4 melta shots and got 4 penetratign hits. 1 wreck, 1 destroyed, 1 weapon gone and a stunned.

Now how are these shots supposed to be allocated. We agreed on the controlling player (him) deciding which 2 got killed and went from there. But was this right?

Praxiss wrote:Ok, played a guard player the other day who fielded a squadron of 3 Sentinels.

Basically i managed to hit them from behind with 4 melta shots and got 4 penetratign hits. 1 wreck, 1 destroyed, 1 weapon gone and a stunned.

Now how are these shots supposed to be allocated. We agreed on the controlling player (him) deciding which 2 got killed and went from there. But was this right?

You allocate the the same way as you allocate wounds. So the person with the Sentinels Decides where they go.

Do you use WAC groups for determining how hits are allocated or not? You allocate glances and pens, not results I thought. The only time you allocate results is by assigning all the glances and pens to the same WAC group (IE: they are all the same) and then the defender can spread things around (removing whole models)

I have seen a lot of fudging on people doing this and trying to do things like make one model Unique, which means that model should have glance/pens allocated to his group and that model is stuck with the results. usually with kanz trying to have the last kan standing with riggers.

THis is how I see it:

1 WAC group of 3 sentinels equipped the same:

Cause damage --> Allocate glance/pen to WAC groups --> (only 1 wac group) --> roll results --> Remove whole models and allocate damages to models based on owners choice.

If they are unique:
Cause damage --> Allocate glance/pen to WAC groups --> roll results for each WAC group individually and resolve results against the individual models --> Remove whole models and allocate damages to models based on owners choice inside WAC group.

So if you have a KAN with riggers, he is unique and therefor must be allocated his own glance/pens separate from his mates and suck up his own result regardless what it is.

Gwar! wrote:

Praxiss wrote:Ok, played a guard player the other day who fielded a squadron of 3 Sentinels.

Basically i managed to hit them from behind with 4 melta shots and got 4 penetratign hits. 1 wreck, 1 destroyed, 1 weapon gone and a stunned.

Now how are these shots supposed to be allocated. We agreed on the controlling player (him) deciding which 2 got killed and went from there. But was this right?

You allocate the the same way as you allocate wounds. So the person with the Sentinels Decides where they go.

Before or after the dmg results are rolled?

because if there are 3 (assuming im reading your post right) he coulda gone...

Sentinal
Wreck/Destroyed
Sentinal
Weapon gone
Sentinal
Stunned

TopC wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Praxiss wrote:Ok, played a guard player the other day who fielded a squadron of 3 Sentinels.

Basically i managed to hit them from behind with 4 melta shots and got 4 penetratign hits. 1 wreck, 1 destroyed, 1 weapon gone and a stunned.

Now how are these shots supposed to be allocated. We agreed on the controlling player (him) deciding which 2 got killed and went from there. But was this right?

You allocate the the same way as you allocate wounds. So the person with the Sentinels Decides where they go.

Before or after the dmg results are rolled?

because if there are 3 (assuming im reading your post right) he coulda gone...

Sentinal
Wreck/Destroyed
Sentinal
Weapon gone
Sentinal
Stunned

Yes, he could have done that.

2 of the hits killed a vehicle, so he chose which 2 to remove. Then the remaining one was stunned and had a weapon blown off.



maybe i should have declared which shots were hittign which vehicles befreo we rolled the damage dice?

Praxiss wrote:2 of the hits killed a vehicle, so he chose which 2 to remove. Then the remaining one was stunned and had a weapon blown off.



maybe i should have declared which shots were hittign which vehicles befreo we rolled the damage dice?

No. You Roll the damage results, then you allocate the Results as if they were wounds.

Praxiss wrote:2 of the hits killed a vehicle, so he chose which 2 to remove. Then the remaining one was stunned and had a weapon blown off.



maybe i should have declared which shots were hittign which vehicles befreo we rolled the damage dice?

Well when shooting at a squad of vehicles, they follow squad rules... which have their own little section in the BRB, id page reference you but alas..i dont have my book w/ me

@Gwar! That's what we thought, just wanted to check we were right.


Thansk guys.

Gwar! wrote:

Praxiss wrote:2 of the hits killed a vehicle, so he chose which 2 to remove. Then the remaining one was stunned and had a weapon blown off.



maybe i should have declared which shots were hittign which vehicles befreo we rolled the damage dice?

No. You Roll the damage results, then you allocate the Results as if they were wounds.

Page 64 disagrees with you Gwar! - it states you allocate pens and glances and THEN roll any results.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Page 64 disagrees with you Gwar! - it states you allocate pens and glances and THEN roll any results.

You Shush!

Yes, sorry, Nos is right. Wasn't looking at my rulebook :(

So, what you do is allocate the pens and glances first, THEN you roll for each model individually.

-Gwar! needs to sleep :(-

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Praxiss wrote:2 of the hits killed a vehicle, so he chose which 2 to remove. Then the remaining one was stunned and had a weapon blown off.



maybe i should have declared which shots were hittign which vehicles befreo we rolled the damage dice?

No. You Roll the damage results, then you allocate the Results as if they were wounds.

Page 64 disagrees with you Gwar! - it states you allocate pens and glances and THEN roll any results.

So it works like wound abuse allocation for infantry? if they are different you can allocate the hits differently giving the possibility of killing a single model twice instead of losing 2 models.. so if all the vehicles are the same it would just kill 2 vehicles? but if there is a minor difference he has the chance of only losing 1?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gwar! wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Page 64 disagrees with you Gwar! - it states you allocate pens and glances and THEN roll any results.

You Shush!

Yes, sorry, Nos is right. Wasn't looking at my rulebook :(

So, what you do is allocate the pens and glances first, THEN you roll for each model individually.

-Gwar! needs to sleep :(-

blasphemy! Gwar needs espresso!

TopC wrote:
So it works like wound abuse allocation for infantry? if they are different you can allocate the hits differently giving the possibility of killing a single model twice instead of losing 2 models.. so if all the vehicles are the same it would just kill 2 vehicles? but if there is a minor difference he has the chance of only losing 1?

It's not as complicated as wound allocation with groups of like models. The penetrating and glancing hits are allocated following the wound allocation rules so no vehicle in the squadron can be allocated three hits before the others in the squadron each have two. For example, a squadron of three sentinels takes 4 hits. 2 penetrate and 2 glance. The owning player can stack the two pens on one vehicle and put a glance on each of the other two. There is no requirement to spread the penetrating hits across the different vehicles. The resulting damage rolls only apply to the vehicle against which the hit was allocated. That is, if you put the two penetrations on the one sentinel and both result in wreck or explosion there is no requirement to try and apply one of those results to another vehicle in the squadron in an attempt to remove as many models as possible.

Arschbombe wrote:

TopC wrote:
So it works like wound abuse allocation for infantry? if they are different you can allocate the hits differently giving the possibility of killing a single model twice instead of losing 2 models.. so if all the vehicles are the same it would just kill 2 vehicles? but if there is a minor difference he has the chance of only losing 1?

It's not as complicated as wound allocation with groups of like models. The penetrating and glancing hits are allocated following the wound allocation rules so no vehicle in the squadron can be allocated three hits before the others in the squadron each have two. For example, a squadron of three sentinels takes 4 hits. 2 penetrate and 2 glance. The owning player can stack the two pens on one vehicle and put a glance on each of the other two. There is no requirement to spread the penetrating hits across the different vehicles. The resulting damage rolls only apply to the vehicle against which the hit was allocated. That is, if you put the two penetrations on the one sentinel and both result in wreck or explosion there is no requirement to try and apply one of those results to another vehicle in the squadron in an attempt to remove as many models as possible.

nice

Arschbombe wrote:
It's not as complicated as wound allocation with groups of like models. The penetrating and glancing hits are allocated following the wound allocation rules so no vehicle in the squadron can be allocated three hits before the others in the squadron each have two. For example, a squadron of three sentinels takes 4 hits. 2 penetrate and 2 glance. The owning player can stack the two pens on one vehicle and put a glance on each of the other two. There is no requirement to spread the penetrating hits across the different vehicles. The resulting damage rolls only apply to the vehicle against which the hit was allocated. That is, if you put the two penetrations on the one sentinel and both result in wreck or explosion there is no requirement to try and apply one of those results to another vehicle in the squadron in an attempt to remove as many models as possible.

But wait... If it works like WOUNDS, then you need to use Wound Groups. If all 3 sentinels are equipped exactly the same, then you need to allocate the 'glances/pens' to the wound group. I don't see why 3 individual sentinels would each be thier own wound group for allocating. Only when models had unique equipment would you then allocate individually.

But this is all unclear as I have no idea if you are supposed to *ALWAYS* treat each vehicle as a unique model for wound allocation or if to treat them in similarly equipped groups.

It makes a difference because:

All the same:

Group 1 = 3 sentinels all the same: 2 Pens/2 Glances --> 2 Destroyed, 1 Immobile, 1 Weapon destroyed = 3 Dead Sentinels

Or:
Group 1 = 1 Sentinel: 2 Pens --> 2 Destroyed = 1 Dead sentinel
Group 2 = 1 Sentinel: 1 Glance --> 1 Immobilized = 1 Dead Sentinel
Group 3 = 1 Sentinel: 1 Glance --> 1 Weapon Destroyed = 1 Weaponless sentinel

Makes a difference and I don't know which way is correct since 'just like wounds' is so unclear and leaves so much to be interpreted when working with vehicles without wounds.

nkelsch wrote:
But this is all unclear as I have no idea if you are supposed to *ALWAYS* treat each vehicle as a unique model for wound allocation or if to treat them in similarly equipped groups.

You have to always treat them like unique models for distributing the hits. The hits are what get treated like wounds for distribution. The damage table results do not.

If you didn't treat the hits this way then allocating them serves no purpose. After rolling the results you'd have to reallocate all the results again.

Arschbombe wrote:

nkelsch wrote:
But this is all unclear as I have no idea if you are supposed to *ALWAYS* treat each vehicle as a unique model for wound allocation or if to treat them in similarly equipped groups.

You have to always treat them like unique models for distributing the hits. The hits are what get treated like wounds for distribution. The damage table results do not.

If you didn't treat the hits this way then allocating them serves no purpose. After rolling the results you'd have to reallocate all the results again.

Where does it say that you determine vehicles as unique models for distributing hits? Why do we not group together like models into wound groups for allocating hits? 'just like wounds' is very ambiguous.

The example in the rules shows how hits are allocated against an Eldar vyper squadron. The squadron takes 6 hits: 3 pens and 3 glances. The player allocates those hits placing 2 pens on one vyper, 2 glances on a second vyper and a glance and a pen on the third vyper. Those hits are then resolved against those vehicles. If there was an additional step of then reallocating the damage table results across those vehicles then the example would have shown that.

Man, squadron rules are harsh enough.

This is the one saving grace they have in that you can fudge how many models possibly explode or become wrecked.

Ok, so just to confirm.

I shoot at...Daves tank squadron. And get 4 pen hits.

Dave allocates the hits against the separate tanks, ensuring an even spread (liekwounds on a unit).

I then roll the results for the pen hits and removes targets as needed.

yes.

so in this case of 4 pens on a 3 model squad

1 walkers gets 2 the others get one.

roll 2 dice for one.

roll one die for one

roll one die for one.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Praxiss wrote:2 of the hits killed a vehicle, so he chose which 2 to remove. Then the remaining one was stunned and had a weapon blown off.



maybe i should have declared which shots were hittign which vehicles befreo we rolled the damage dice?

No. You Roll the damage results, then you allocate the Results as if they were wounds.

Page 64 disagrees with you Gwar! - it states you allocate pens and glances and THEN roll any results.

I hereby rescind my allegation that you and Gwar! may be the same person.