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Hi everyone,

I was wondering if anyone else experienced a situation where a substantial amount of money/deposit (>USD 700) was given via paypal to a paint studio who failed to deliver?

Things was proceeding apace (from my point of view) but the deadline for delivery (including WIP shots) kept getting delayed and delayed. Recently, I have tried to reach out to the studio on multiple occassions without success (no replies whatsoever).

In my email trail with the studio, I have been extremely patient and understanding. I even proposed a more generous timeline as I am well aware that quality work takes time.

I will refrain from giving out details of the offending studio (for the next 24 hrs at least) as I am still hoping against hope that there is good reason for their lack of replies.

As they say, hope is the denial of the truth so I wish to consult with my fellow dakkites and understand what options I have in recouping my investment.

The facts are:

- This is a US studio and I am from another country
- The delivery deadline has been pushed back 3 times but now, the studio is simply not replying any of my emails
- I have the full names, contact number and address of the owners of the studio
- The email trail clearly states that a contract for their services was accepted and monies was paid and acknowledged. Paypal also has a record of these transactions
- I called one of the painters and he replied that he would explain the situation via email. That email never arrived. He is no longer answering my expensive long distance calls

Many thanks in advance!

Im not sure if you can do this but try and contact the better business bureau its based here in america and tell them your problem its a government thing here so try that.

Or open a case with paypal, they have some good buyer protection and it will force him to respond.

Yup, contact PayPal as well. Here's the web address for the Better Business Bureau:

http://www.bbb.org/

It's not a government organization, but it's got a good amount of clout. Sorry you've had such a headache with these guys!

Oh I forgot that you did this through paypal oh yeah go through them they will either get your work done or your money back.

I believe this can also be considered Wire Fraud. Hopefully PayPal can assist, if they cannot and you paid with a credit card, they may be able to exert some influence.

Its disappointing to see these sort of things happen, but when they do there is NOTHING wrong with holding them accountable for thier actions (or lack of).

Did you find them thru Dakka?

If so, I would consider Name & Shame ... it is possible that someone here might know the studio and have insight.

If you paid through PayPal then you need to act quickly, as there is a limited window that you can escalate matters to a dispute. I think it is 45 days, but I am not 1000% sure on that off hand. Time is definitely an issue.

I have unfortunately, exceeded the 45 days by 7 days.

What is even more sinister, is the lack of WIP shots even though there were multiple assurances things were on time.

Are there no other option for me and the bbb.org website displays a page not found error for me?

I guess at this point there is no point in hoping for the best anymore. My best bet is for someone who knows the studio and persuade them to return me my money.

EDIT: I have removed their website link as I can contact Eric for more details. I still want to give them a chance and not ruin their reputation if possible.

I will update everyone once I get another update. THANK YOU!

Hope you get a good outcome and speedy resolution.
Did you also have to supply the models for the service?
Hope you don't lose out that way too

Man that is just awful, there has to be some way you can get justice. their website looks very legitimate, but I guess you never know... and 700$ is a lot of cash

Try PayPal anyway.

We don't know what the time limit is or when it starts running.

$700 is not an insignificant amount of money.

It's definitely mail fraud with internet/wire fraud being thrown in.

One option is to file a formal complaint with the Federal Trade Commission (FTC): https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/

Also, I recommend contacting the United States Postal Inspection Service and file a Mail Fraud Complaint:
https://postalinspectors.uspis.gov/forms/MailFraudComplaint.aspx

I had a paypal dispute once with an ebay item I bought that was never sent, they solved the problem but I had to wait a certain # of days for paypal to contact them and see what happened, and when they never responded I got my money back. I would contact paypal ASAP since the longer you wait the less of a chance you have of them helping you. who knows maybe it's 60 days and not 45.

I don't know if the better business bureau can help if it's just some guy in his mom's basement and not a "real" company. If you were referred to them through Chapterhouse, why not give them a call or email too, maybe they know the guy personally and can go slap him upside the head for you.

Did they send you any completed models in the mail? I'd imagine that they might if they are finishing these a few at a time. But it seems from your post that you have not received anything for the money as of yet.

Some of these legitimate-seeming businesses are just a couple of guys with a Paypal account. Their work looks good, but of course, they need to stay in touch better than they do.

I'd try to get them on the phone - since you do have the contact information, you might as well make use of it. If they can at least send some WIP pics, that may help to assuage your fears and allow them to redeem themselves.

It says 45 days on the website
also the buyer protection scheme is for tangible goods and does not cover services. sorry :(

would still get in touch with Paypal as they may be able to offer some advise.

In the UK we have the Citezens' Advice Bureau to get free advise- is there any such organisation in Poland?

The Better Business Bureau won't/can't do anything unless the business in question is a member. Then all they can do is threaten to drop them. Good luck!

I may possibly be in a similar situation, too soon to say for sure, but I have 2 guys who are payed in full for nearly 2 months now and i have yet to see much of anything from either of them, emails are trailing off too, they keep promising to show things but then there is nothing. It is far more one than the other for now, but I am definitely starting to get nervous/pissed.

Will keep an eye on this one so I know what to do should things continue in this fashion...

Please, please, please, use a reputable established painting service like Reinforcements By Post.

They did my 6mm Russians. There are various others I don't know by personal experience.

Hey Overkill76....

He's listed in the Barter Town Advertiser Forums as NGArtStudios with a 42 feedback. This may be of interest and it looks like his last log on was on 4/15:

http://bartertown.com/trading/viewtopic.php?f=90&t=109295


You may want to contact Eric over there to see if he can help shed light on things...:

http://bartertown.com/trading/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=365


Good luck!

BITZJUNKIE wrote:Hey Overkill76....

You may want to contact Eric over there to see if he can help shed light on things...:

http://bartertown.com/trading/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=365


Good luck!

...or, maybe Eric will come to you. : )

I am currently in personal dealings with BOTH painters under NGARTS for different armies.

Overkill, please PM me here on Dakka or over on Bartertown.
Although, I think I already know what you're going to say, please send me the (real) name or email address of the person you're dealing with. I may be able to offer some insight and assistance from there.

Eric

Just a quick update. The painter emailed me (FINALLY!) and said they still want to keep me as a client.

I have requested/demanded for WIP shots even if the models are still in their boxes. All I want to know is that they are legit and my hard earned money have not been spent in vain.

Thanks again to everyone and I'll update again once I get a reply. I am again, hopeful that there is light at the end of the tunnel.

i follow NGArts stuff on CMON, and can say that they are legit, in that they are always posting updates on their work...

from the amount of stuff that they have on the go, i would say that they have probably overstretched themselves by a long shot...
they seem to have 4 or 5 projects on the go...

no excuse for the lack of emails and updates though...
the best thing to do for a customer when things fall behind is to man-up and keep them in the loop...
i've never lost a customer by being honest...

i hope you get this worked out, Overkill...

cheers
jah

It's great that they contacted you, hopefully this can be worked out without having to resort to charges.

Name and shame. By not naming them, you are not protecting other people from their poor service, and its casts suspicion on other services (like mine!).

Miniature Painting is a hard business with low margins and highly variable sales which means you are always either behind schedule on orders or are struggling to get enough work, but you don't ignore your clients.

If someone has paid you money, until you get your goods - or your money back - they are obliged to reply your emails in a timely manner.

jah-joshua wrote:i follow NGArts stuff on CMON, and can say that they are legit, in that they are always posting updates on their work...

from the amount of stuff that they have on the go, i would say that they have probably overstretched themselves by a long shot...
they seem to have 4 or 5 projects on the go...

no excuse for the lack of emails and updates though...
the best thing to do for a customer when things fall behind is to man-up and keep them in the loop...
i've never lost a customer by being honest...

i hope you get this worked out, Overkill...

cheers
jah

Hi joshua,

can you provide a link to their work? I only found Maciej's Blog and it only has 2 entries on it.

Thanks!

here you go:

http://www.coolminiornot.com/forums/showthread.php?36176-Project-Log-2.0

last update was 8 April, so they are not exactly layin' low...

cheers
jah

jah-joshua wrote:here you go:

http://www.coolminiornot.com/forums/showthread.php?36176-Project-Log-2.0

last update was 8 April, so they are not exactly layin' low...

cheers
jah

Thanks Joshua! More than anyone, I hope they deliver!!

So at what point do you think someone should consider starting a thread like this? I am getting to the end of my rope with 1 commission guy in particular, and the other one is starting starting to miss his updates too... Excuses (from both, completely unrelated) often involve an ill family member, themselves being ill, exhaustion, business, and once, seriously, diarrhea.

So far I have precious little to show for my investment. How many missed deadlines for updates did you have before making this thread? Unfortunately I too am over my 45 day paypal limit, and I too have nothing in terms of wip from one and only the bare minimum (like .5 hour of work) from the other. The last 2 emails I sent were polite but made it clear my patience was running out and that any further 'ill show you something tuesday, then nothing for a week then sorry i missed the update, ill show you something tuesday and repeat' business would be unnaceptable. That was a day and a half ago on the last one, still nothing...

For a start you should lodge a PayPal claim before the 45 day time limit expires. It's there for a reason -- firstly because anyone businesslike can solve the problem within 45 days, even if all they do is to pay you back your money; secondly because the longer things are left, the more difficult it becomes to resolve them.

I don't think there's much a forum like Dakka can or even wants to do.

Dakka has never presented itself as a trading/business forum. It does not offer any conflict resolution like eBay/PayPal/Bartertown. The main help we give is to do with people in the Swap Shop forum and it's mainly to allow people to report good and bad trades.

A thread here may help vent your feelings but it probably won't do much to help resolve the situation. You will get a lot of contradictory advice. You might possibly shame the trader into action, but equally you might annoy him.

People and businesses do suffer unforeseen problems like illness. The main issue with these small painting businesses is that really they are a guy in a garage, often working in the evenings after school or his real job. It is very easy for these people to overextend themselves, especially where there is no back-up for when a genuine problem occurs.

I don't say that to make excuses, it has to be seen as the hazard of dealing with a small outfit. Sometimes, but rarely I think, these kind of excuses are to cover up a deliberate scam.

The best that might happen is that one of our community minded Swap Shop mods might take an interest in your case. I'm not going to name anyone or make any promise. It will be purely out of the goodness of their heart if they do take it up, since the entire business is outside of Dakka's bailiwick.

My advice is to keep trying to contact the painters, and ask for a firm schedule of them finishing your stuff.