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I'm really just wondering...

Assume that the current chapter-specific Marine codices were discontinued. A few pages are added somewhere in the vanilla Marine Codex listing special rules and characters.

In their place, we got some completely new armies... Codex Mechanicus, for example, or a Codex Deathwatch that was very, very different from standard Marines (at least as different as GK). Maybe Demiurge or Hrud? something completely new?

Given that GW can only support a finite number of armies, it seems somewhat... something, that almost a third of them should be variations on a theme.

Would you support it? What armies would you like to see?

I'd be put out that my favorite army, my BA, would go the way of the dodo. I'd be less perturbed at losing my CSM. It might not kill my interest in the game since I play other armies, but I think it would drive a lot of people out.

Space Marines are the staple.
They are the cash crop.
They are the standard
They are the butt of most jokes.

I would be unhappy as... I'm sure many people have invested in them already.

More focus on other armies is IMO NEEDED, but not at the cost of completely unsupporting ... pretty much the ICON of 40K.

The unsaid implication here is that if GW didn't spend time making SM codexes they could make more codexes for other armies. But that's just not the case. GMs output isn't limited by volume like a pipe, but by how much money they have to hire people. GM needs to make money, the more they make the more codexes you will see. The fact that marine codexes are so popular tells you they sell well. They are the cash crop. The more profit they make the more they can experiment with new ideas.

SM codexes are not REPLACING other armies, they are ALLOWING other armies. If they replaced all the SM material with new, less popular material, than new updates would be SLOWER in coming, not faster.

The SM ARE the heart and soul of the game. They catch a lot of flak, but I'd wager well over 95% of hobbyists have had a serious interest in SM at one point or another. They catch a lot of flak because they are so common, but they are so common because they are frikkin awesome.

I don't think there is a lot of work in making a codex.

Most of the fluff and pictures are repeats. Most of the rules are just updates. A lot of the work can be outsourced to freelancers. You can even outsource the playtesting.

The reason for the slow rate of releases is because GW think that is what maximises the rate people spend at.

Everyone seems to be taking the discussion as "What if Space Marines were discontinued?" That wasn't what the op said. He was asking, "What if all Space Marines had one codex instead of, what, 4 codexes?" In this hypothetical world, we would still have Codex: Space Marines, but no specific codexes for Wolves, BA, etc.

Instead, Codex: SM would feature a page or two for fluff and rules for Chapters of Legend, much like the last Chaos 'dex.

Personally, I think it's a good idea. Just make the new Codex: SM expansive enough that it reasonably represents each chapter and it would be fine. I'm not saying the new book would have to be the equivalent of what those chapters receive in their individual codexes. Just enough to make them unique.

Do differently painted marines each need their own book? No.

Does it really take much effort to support them, model-wise? Again, no. Each army doesn't really need separate models, just basic marine models and an upgrade sprue.

I would like it if they made 1 SM codex and 1 CSM codex. Give each main chapter a couple of pages with, background special rules, extra units, Special characters, and a few extra items and limit the vanilla units it can take.

For example here is the sort of thing you could do for Sw (obviously it would have more rules,units ect...)

All units in a SW army get acute sense and counter attack for free. Any SW can also contain Lone wolves and TWC and give them rules on that page. Include rules for ragnar, ulrik and logan Grimnar. Include rules for a few of their unique weapons. Then give them a new army list saying what units they can take from the vanilla list, so:
HQ
SM commander
Chaplain
Librarian

Elite
Dreadnought
Techmarine
Scouts
Terminators

Troop
Tactical marines (with a special rules so they can change their bolt guns to pistols and CC weapons)

Fast attack
SM bikers
Assault marines
Land speeders

Heavy Attack
Devastators
Predator
Whirlwind
Vindicator
LR varients

This would allow you to play SW without them needing their own codex. If you look at all the SM codexs they all have almost identical units but they are in different slots (fast attack to troops or troops to elite) or have a few special rules. Do they really need to print all the lists, armouries and generic SM fluff just to add a few special rules and a page or two of fluff.

And to make the FIVE Codexs in to one and make them all still difrent would make it 1" thick.
Why doint wa also put the Grey Knights In there.
Make the Sister part of the IG, after all they use Storm Troopers
Make the Eldar and Dark Eldar into one after all they are And Chaos Marines and Chaos Deamons into one after all they are both Chaos.
[We realy need a Sarcasim Orkmoticon]

Anpu42 wrote:And to make the FIVE Codexs in to one and make them all still difrent would make it 1" thick.

... And Chaos Marines and Chaos Deamons into one after all they are both Chaos.

Bad example, since CSM's and Daemons really should be one codex. The "Huge Book" line was Gav Thorpe's reasoning for why CSM's and Daemons needed separate books. "To fit in all the necessary information," he said, "the book would be several hundred pages long!" What he left out is that they had been combined in every other Chaos 'dex, and the books had not been that huge. Similarly, it wouldn't be necessary to put in all the info from all of the current marine codexes, because much of it is repeated. For example, there is an entry for "Land Raider" in each of those 5 codexes, each on its own page. Would we commit 5 pages to Land Raiders in the combined codex? Of course not.

Combining Sisters and IG, or combining Eldar and Dark Eldar is a strawman argument. They are obviously different armies. The counter-argument would be: Why don't Ulthwe, Biel Tan and the rest each get their own codex?

Using Space Wolves as the example, how are they different enough from vanilla Marines to warrant a separate book? Vehicles are just copy-pasted (reminds me of the old Dark Angels mini-dex, with several units only having a heading and the line "see codex: Space Marines for details") Some units are in different force org slots. Lone wolves are basically just Wolf Guard. TWC are powerful, but were a dumb idea to begin with. Pretty much everything else can be represented with C: SM just by changing the name.

ashrog wrote:

Anpu42 wrote:And to make the FIVE Codexs in to one and make them all still difrent would make it 1" thick.

... And Chaos Marines and Chaos Deamons into one after all they are both Chaos.

Bad example, since CSM's and Daemons really should be one codex. The "Huge Book" line was Gav Thorpe's reasoning for why CSM's and Daemons needed separate books. "To fit in all the necessary information," he said, "the book would be several hundred pages long!" What he left out is that they had been combined in every other Chaos 'dex, and the books had not been that huge. Similarly, it wouldn't be necessary to put in all the info from all of the current marine codexes, because much of it is repeated. For example, there is an entry for "Land Raider" in each of those 5 codexes, each on its own page. Would we commit 5 pages to Land Raiders in the combined codex? Of course not.

Combining Sisters and IG, or combining Eldar and Dark Eldar is a strawman argument. They are obviously different armies. The counter-argument would be: Why don't Ulthwe, Biel Tan and the rest each get their own codex?

Using Space Wolves as the example, how are they different enough from vanilla Marines to warrant a separate book? Vehicles are just copy-pasted (reminds me of the old Dark Angels mini-dex, with several units only having a heading and the line "see codex: Space Marines for details") Some units are in different force org slots. Lone wolves are basically just Wolf Guard. TWC are powerful, but were a dumb idea to begin with. Pretty much everything else can be represented with C: SM just by changing the name.

This was Sarcasim

As fa as an real reason this would not work is that all 5 of the Dexes are different. If they were all combined into one and given the ability to make them unique with thier special characters all you would see is 5 list.
Deathwing/Logan: Terminator only List
Ravenwing/White Scars: Bike only List
Blood Angels: Jump Troop only List
Space Wolves: Assuatl Troops only List
Space Marines: Lots of Tac Squads mounted on transports

With the 5 Codexes you get all of that and more.
If I did not have the DA Codexes I would not have Dark Angles in Power Armor.
All my Space Wolves would just be Assault Squads without Jump Packs.
I would also have just Space Wolves and Space Wolves only.
The Differnt Codex gives varity so I have 2 Diferent Armies
If they went back to the Diferent Eldar/Craft World Eldar Codexes and I colectede Eldar I would Collect Both, jut to add varity.

I am defending the Multible Codex for Space Marines
I would also like to see other Codexes, these would actualy get me to collect more Armies
Goffs
Kroot
Catachan
Death Corps
Harliquin
I think that thier is not enough Codex out there.

ashrog wrote:Everyone seems to be taking the discussion as "What if Space Marines were discontinued?" That wasn't what the op said. [snip] .

What he said. I wasn't suggesting that Marines should be eliminated! I like Marines. (God help me, I even like Ultramarines...) I also wasn't suggesting that Chaos Marines don't need their own book, either, I think they do. Chaos Marines are genuinely different to loyalists.

I also recognise that Marines sell. Of course they sell! They get so much support. And it's only natural that they get so much support, they are the best sellers. I defy anyone to point out just where the cause and effect lie there, though.

I am going to consider myself safe in the Inquisition.

Grey Knights and SoB aren't all that Marine-y...

It would be a pretty big blow to lose individual codexes.

I'm guessing non-vanilla Marine players would throw a fit, and then suddenly understand why losing Legions was a big deal to Chaos Marines.

Honestly, a single Chaos 'dex would probably be much better. Seems like we have two half codexes that can't be used together.

Mad Rabbit wrote:I'm guessing non-vanilla Marine players would throw a fit, and then suddenly understand why losing Legions was a big deal to Chaos Marines.

I there is a big misconception that we don't Sypathise with you. The way alot of Non-Marine Players make it sound like [Perceptions are part of the problem] we are chuckling at you for loosing a book or us getting ours fist. No we imidiately go defensive the moment we hear a new MEQ Dex, someone whines about "MEQs are Getting all of the Love and now GW hates us!". We respond and the perception is don't care. Well we do care, we just care more about our selfish little sevles.

I like reading codexes. If GW released more, I would probably pick them up to read them. And I realize that from GW's point of view, books are cheaper to produce than models, and also make players want to buy the models. The problem is that the more codexes you have, the less playtesting is done, and the more power imbalance becomes apparent.

What I would like to see is this: around 10 codexes, each one providing lots of options for different playstyles. Each codex would be primarily a rulebook, with only small snippets of fluff to keep the reader interested. No full page stories or such.

To compliment the codexes, GW releases a set of "fluff books". This is where most of an armies backstory would come from. There could be fluff books for the overall army (Space Marines, Eldar), for sub-factions (Blood Angels, Ulthwe), even for campaign settings (Massacre at the Abyssal Fields). These books would contain no rules (so less codex creep), only stories, pictures, maybe painting guides for the army. Ooh, and a hobby section! How to build x, or easy conversions for the army. I'm thinking they had something similar to rule-less fluff books in RT? I could be mistaken.

I'd be unhappy, for the poor sods who've built up MEQ armies and who've just lost them.

I'd be out 5 armies. I would not be pleased.

I think that the existence of several Marine Codices serves sales better than codices for several different armies. From GW's perspective it's relatively easy to modify existing models/codices, from retail perspective it helps with shelf/storage space. And, last but not least, from players perspective it's rather easy to expand a vanilla marine army by buing a new codex (BA, SW, whatever) and adding some models to it. Like, you can buy lots of terminators and use them as normal Ultra Pamper... Ultramarines terminators or as DA Deathwing. Or if you have a marine army, you can buy a few Baal predators and happily use the BA codex without additional purchases. From modelling perspective this is also good as you have a variety of options available - it would be nice to have such options for other armies too, but one has to leave something for the DIY folk

I think its a horse crap idea, and would never happen, marines rock they are such a versitile and have so much freaking back ground and fluff, putting them into one codex would discredit them. All of the codices, I believe are on par with each other as far as competitiveness, yet play differently at the same time. I think chaos need more options, possibly a second codex that allows them to play more speacialised armies, and as stated, marines make all other armies possible due to sales, without them there would be no 40k.

Free your minds!

You don't have to do what GW wants.

Models don't vanish because the rules change.

I would just stick my Marines out as Carapace armoured Guard.

Anpu42 wrote:As fa as an real reason this would not work is that all 5 of the Dexes are different. If they were all combined into one and given the ability to make them unique with thier special characters all you would see is 5 list.
Deathwing/Logan: Terminator only List
Ravenwing/White Scars: Bike only List
Blood Angels: Jump Troop only List
Space Wolves: Assuatl Troops only List
Space Marines: Lots of Tac Squads mounted on transports

With the 5 Codexes you get all of that and more.

You could easily combine half of the army lists of all of those armies without impacting on complexity or variety at all. Given this basic fact, you're jumping about eighty yards to the conclusion that all variety would be lost from all space marines were their dexes combined. This is incredibly specious reasoning given the other basic fact that it is not necessary for that to happen in order for the codexes to be combined. Do you remember the old Chaos dex, that had the different legions with special characters and modified army lists for each?

There is no reason that if that same idea was applied here in an expanded way that variety in SM armies would suffer that isn't extant already with the current codex situation.

It's horsecrap that we wouldn't have as many codices without the sales of the various Space Marine armies! Nerds are a finite resource, and even if there were no Space Marines GW would still have as many customers because we nerds aren't going anywhere. We need our plastic crack fix from somewhere, and we'll always take the path of least resistance in finding it - namely Games Workshop.

I could, using equally flawed logic, argue that Space Marines are as popular as they are because nearly half the codices are Space Marines (7 SM vs 9 other), and get updated far more often. They'll pick up more players through factors that have nothing to do with the asthetic value of the army; with more codices comes greater chances of having the current WAAC power build, or grabbing bandwagoners jumping on the latest codex, or picking up players simply due to them selecting an army at random.

Anpu42 wrote:And to make the FIVE Codexs in to one and make them all still difrent would make it 1" thick.
Why doint wa also put the Grey Knights In there.
Make the Sister part of the IG, after all they use Storm Troopers
Make the Eldar and Dark Eldar into one after all they are And Chaos Marines and Chaos Deamons into one after all they are both Chaos.
[We realy need a Sarcasim Orkmoticon]

I wouldn't mind this at all, depending on what we would lose to fit two armies into one book. I know chaos wouldn't lose anything but special characters as they use to be in one book anyways, but with eldar and Dark eldar I would want it to be pretty clear that they are separete armies just in the same book.

It could work putting all the SM chapters together giving a list for each chapter (not the minor ones). And then do one big release for them when it gets released and then just doing a wave everyone 3 months or so.

Not gonna happen though, I just want some non imperium/ork stuff out. Like Nids who really only got like 1 codex and what three new models?

I voted unhappy. Since GW started it, they can't take it away. Well, they could, but they'd loose so much profit and BA, SW and other such things would just go back to being vanilla's painted red/grey/etc.

And besides, some codicies, such as BA, allow for good pre-heresy rules, and you can use them to represent your own chapter if you wish. They add so much awesome stuff for us SM players. Yes, while I realize and agree with the "this means there will be more SM players" statement, and I hate it just as much as anyone else, that's the only problem - rule bashers aside. I mean, if the level of MEQ armies went down (not including, say, necrons and CSM) then who would have a problem? Noone! Well, very few people.

Space marines are said to be very good for beginners. This is true.

But they are a bucket full of inspiration and awesomeness for any veteran hobbiest! Those of us who have been around long enough (I can't really talk, but I know what I'm talking about :p) know SM's are the best army for converting. Well, the easiest, I'm not saying that other armies can't be converted just as well or better, but blah blah blah you get the idea.

There are many reasons people choose SM's over other armies, and hence why they are the most popular.
If Eldar became the new "MEQs" people would have the same problem with them.

Anyways, this thread is essentially saying "do you have a problem with the fact most people play MEQ, and how much of a problem is it for you?"

For me, it really isn't that big a deal. Sure, I dislike playing MEQ, but only when I'm playing them myself.
Give me a xenos army and 10 MEQ enemy's, I won't be complaining (much ). [/endrant]

Personally I don’t think there are enough Codexes, I could even live with the PDF version like the old Blood Angels one.
I would like to see
-Craft World Eldar Codex
-Goff’s Codex
-Morian Guard Codex

I feel that if tomorrow they released every Xeno-Dex pluss Squats, Zoats and Space Scaven, and then announce in 6 moths the Salamander Codex their would still be screams of GW Space Marine Love and how come my race doesn’t get a new one First.

I wouldn't mind at all. In fact it would probably make my day.

Dedrith wrote:I wouldn't mind at all. In fact it would probably make my day.

I STAMP THEE!

I'd be unhappy. A codex with enough special rules to represent each chapter differently would be horrendously bloated, and probably very poorly balanced. It wouldn't represent truly divergent chapters like the Space Wolves and Black Templar (not so much the Angels, but whatever...). These oddball books also allow for a lot of DIY opportunities with counts-as forces. Hell, I see more Chaos/Renegade armies using the Wolf codex than loyalists.

I am a newb to the WH:40K tabletop world buuuuut I still say damn the consequences. I would be absolutely thrilled if they replaced MEQ codexes with saaaaay A NEW FETHING NECRON CODEX.

In hindsight, I should've done research before I invested, but no. I was like "soulless evil robots bent on absorbing the souls of every single living things? I think I agree with that notion."

And then $400+ later I find out the codex ix outdated and I can field an army only half the size of others for the same amount of points.

I would even compromise it. Say you can keep your current MEQ's but don't put out another one til you get the new Necron codex out for feths sake!

If most marine-codices were lumped into one book, were either looking at something big ( 2-300 pages) or something awfully cut to shreds ( actual size of codex ). Point is, they couldn't represent anything non-smurfy in the vanilla codex without claiming smurfs
as the bestest marines, so imagine the happyness level of all those non-vanilla players if they get all painted blue.

Would you really tell me , GW could scrap 4 codices and put the characters and units into 1 codex without "squatting" most of
the SC and codex specific units? Youre aware what happened to those sharing a codex with ultramarines?
IH=lost. SC = 1 per non-smurf, all the others smurfs. Every single difference moved to USR/SC rules.
Lets assume they included BA, BT, DA and SW in codex blue-space-marines.
-so were looking at 1 SC per non-smurf ( 8-9 ) + 5 smurfies
-stormravens either out or codexwide available.
-baal preds either out or also codexwide available.
-tacs get boltgun,boltpistol,ccw just for simplicity
-maybe they discontinue the TFC or throw out the Techmarines
-scatter reduced or DW assault for everyone
-dreads in squads
-preds maybe also in squads
-wolfguard and honorguard merge into a new 'pimp my movie marine' squad
all of this just to make space to fit all the existant plastic kits into the codex.
Great.

After that, GW has to come up with a reason to buy the SC and the upgrade kits and still invent new armies to fill exactly which role?
That of the discontinued SM? So the same job, just a new employee?
As I doubt GW's ability to create enough new interesting concepts to justify its own codex, maybe those fond of the idea of 1 space marine codex should rethink their wish, cause there may be less than 10 viable army concepts.

Wh40k needs more variants, not less.