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This is a list i came up with and tested today and it came close to tabling a SM player.

Roughly:


HQ

Sorcerer- MoS, Lash, Melta Bombs, Personal Icon
Sorcerer- MoS, Lash, Melta Bombs, Personal Icon
Greater Demon


Elites

Termies- Combi Melta x2, Chainfist, Heavy Flamer
Termies- Combi Melta x2, Chainfist, Heavy Flamer
Termies- Combi Melta x2, Chainfist, Heavy Flamer

Troops

Chaos Marines x10- Champ, IoCG, Melta Gun x2, Rhino
Chaos Marines x10- Champ, IoCG, Melta Gun x2, Rhino
Plague Marines x8- Champ, Fist, Plasma Gun x2, Icon, Rhino
Plague Marines x8- Champ, Fist, Plasma Gun x2, Icon, Rhino
Lesser Demons x10
Lesser Demons x10

Heavy Support

Defiler- Havoc Launcher
Defiler- Havoc Launcher
Defiler- Havoc Launcher


Now before you say it, I'm not going to take Oblits. I hate the fluff, models, and the don't sync well with my army.

The main problem with my army last year and in other tournaments I've participated in is that I usually only start the game with four Rhinos on the board and thats all. Every game they all get destroyed or immobilized in the first turn and I trudge across the board the rest of the game. That's why I took the Defilers, they are big and scary looking so everybody shoots at them. Therefore the bulk of my army can do its job. I also severely needed some long ranged fire support and they fill that role well.

You know if the Sorcerer is lashing from in a unit and you want to fire anything from that unit the target can just go to ground and negate the lash.

Thats the reason most people use lash DPs.

I really like it. Commiting completely to squads in the manner you have would appear to my tactical senses very well.

I totally love seeing that many Daemons. The terminator setup is really awesome as well. I love to see Heavy Flamer / Chainfist.

I don't know if the Havok Launcher is quite needed on the Defilers? Aren't you losing a twin linking Autocannon or something for that? And it's costing extra points. Autocannon breaks light vehicles real nice, specially with any type of reroll.

The two sorc HQs are not my two picks for the HQ selections. But It's apples to oranges, I'm sure they work nicely attached to plage marines.

Clthomps wrote:You know if the Sorcerer is lashing from in a unit and you want to fire anything from that unit the target can just go to ground and negate the lash.

Thats the reason most people use lash DPs.

At 2500 DPs get killed so fast it's sad.

I didn't know about the going to ground thing to negate it. If that's true then it could be a problem. But I tend to run the Sorcerers by themselves in the PMs Rhinos.

Koski wrote:I really like it. Commiting completely to squads in the manner you have would appear to my tactical senses very well.

I totally love seeing that many Daemons. The terminator setup is really awesome as well. I love to see Heavy Flamer / Chainfist.

I don't know if the Havok Launcher is quite needed on the Defilers? Aren't you losing a twin linking Autocannon or something for that? And it's costing extra points. Autocannon breaks light vehicles real nice, specially with any type of reroll.

The two sorc HQs are not my two picks for the HQ selections. But It's apples to oranges, I'm sure they work nicely attached to plage marines.

The HL replaces the HF which hardly ever comes into play anyway and its only 5 points which i have. (Hence the melta bombs)

To OP: You're taking this list to ard boyz. Essentially that means a ton of armor and enormous amounts of firepower per round. You want lots of tough armor of your own as well as units that can crack open lots of armor.

From those assumptions I would recommend taking 3x combi-melta termies instead of 2. I would also take melta on all of your plague marines instead of plasma on a few. I would also drop the greater daemon(expensive, requires the sacrifice of another relatively expensive model, and has issues with coming in late and not doing as much as you'd hoped).

Your main problem is a lot of weak armor that ard boyz is known for stomping. At 2500 points if you don't go first you could lose all of your transports(or most) in one round of fire. You really might consider taking your termies in land raiders and shielding your other transports using a choochoo train maneuver (or just presenting the land raiders as closer targets while your rhinos try to stay out of LoS). In this same vein of thinking you might consider vindicators (I don't normally like them, but ard boyz is a different animal) for their strong front armor, or preds for the same reason. Your defilers are very tall and only av12 so I'm a bit worried about em.

Clthomps wrote:You know if the Sorcerer is lashing from in a unit and you want to fire anything from that unit the target can just go to ground and negate the lash.

Thats the reason most people use lash DPs.

I'd love to hear your reasoning for that, but it may be better to take it to YMDC.

I don't see how that is true. It clearly says in the going to ground section that the models going to ground still react to enemy actions as normal(ie they can be forced to fall back , and if they do so return to normal immediately). Even if they choose to go to ground and lash somehow doesn't affect them they are completely unable to do anything for the next turn so it is still useful.

edit: I just checked the newest 5th edition rulebook faq and it covers this exact situation. It says that if you declare they go to ground the lash still works as normal (ie moving where you want them to) but the unit gains a cover save for the next turn (and they can do nothing else during that turn). It is basically just forcing your units into pinning instead of pinning because you failed to pass your test after the lash. It does nothing but hurt you unless you want that cover save for some reason.

I do like the 3 defilers, it does make your opponent feel like they have to deal with it. At 2500 its a shame you are not working Abbadon in. ( Talk about Holy Crude Reaction).

Snickerdoodle wrote: At 2500 its a shame you are not working Abbadon in. ( Talk about Holy Crude Reaction).

I'm in the camp of people that find abaddon to always be a waste of points no matter the point level. He's slow(and if you put him in a land raider add that 220pt to his total), he offers no force multipliers whatsoever, he wields a daemon weapon (so he may get d6 extra attacks or he may get none at all and possibly a wound if he fails his 4++) and he's 275pts in one model. You could get so many other cool units for that price instead of wasting it on one subpar character.

I'm on that boat too Halsfield

As for GtG vs. Lash, it doesn't work. They may not voluntarily move, but Lash is not a voluntary move for the unit going to ground.

I would hazard: Drop the Greater Daemon and get a Dread...just for more Armor Saturation.

Sgt. Salt wrote:This is a list i came up with and tested today and it came close to tabling a SM player.

Roughly:


HQ

Sorcerer- MoS, Lash, Melta Bombs, Personal Icon
Sorcerer- MoS, Lash, Melta Bombs, Personal Icon
Greater Demon


Elites

Termies- Combi Melta x2, Chainfist, Heavy Flamer
Termies- Combi Melta x2, Chainfist, Heavy Flamer
Termies- Combi Melta x2, Chainfist, Heavy Flamer

Troops

Chaos Marines x10- Champ, IoCG, Melta Gun x2, Rhino
Chaos Marines x10- Champ, IoCG, Melta Gun x2, Rhino
Plague Marines x8- Champ, Fist, Plasma Gun x2, Icon, Rhino
Plague Marines x8- Champ, Fist, Plasma Gun x2, Icon, Rhino
Lesser Demons x10
Lesser Demons x10

Heavy Support

Defiler- Havoc Launcher
Defiler- Havoc Launcher
Defiler- Havoc Launcher


Now before you say it, I'm not going to take Oblits. I hate the fluff, models, and the don't sync well with my army.

The main problem with my army last year and in other tournaments I've participated in is that I usually only start the game with four Rhinos on the board and thats all. Every game they all get destroyed or immobilized in the first turn and I trudge across the board the rest of the game. That's why I took the Defilers, they are big and scary looking so everybody shoots at them. Therefore the bulk of my army can do its job. I also severely needed some long ranged fire support and they fill that role well.

Well, given your reasoning, it's certainly not a bad list. I would not be scared facing it with mine, but then I don't fear most csm lists either.

Very little critque here, just some questions.

If you are using the pm's for 'suicide melta', why take them as 8 man squads?

Have you tried swapping (for test purposes) the plasma and melta, i.e. making the csm melta squads and the pm's plasma? I'm just curious on this one.

Have you tried ac/las preds instead of the defiler's?

@ Hals

The termies have the heavy flamer chainfist guy so that even after they drop in they are still a valid threat. I won a tourny game last week because that one termie bagged me 4 KPs by himself.
The transports really only ever need to survive one round of shooting before they are in a place they can be of use.

@ Weasel

The PMs aren't for 'suicide melta'. They don't even have melta guns... They have the plasma guns.

AC/las preds just don't ever bag as much as they should for their high points cost.

I think that you will find that choosing 3 defilers over 9 oblits is a mistake, but working with what we have:
I really don't see those rhinos going anywhere in 'ard boyz. If I saw your list, then I would say to hell with the defilers and pop all of the rhinos on turn 1 (yes, I would. There are too few of them.) Now your sorcerers are exposed, you troops ar on foot, and I can pick them apart at my leasure.

Think about what you will be seeing:
You will see a good number of lists with 3 ac/las preds and 9-10 tl assault cannons, all on fast vehicles. Not only will they get all of your rhinos, they will do a number on those defilers too.

Have you seen leafblower? Man...

Nice start, but you need more armor and more long range anti tank.

Sgt. Salt wrote:@ Hals

The termies have the heavy flamer chainfist guy so that even after they drop in they are still a valid threat.

Well you can keep the chainfist and go up to 3x combi-melta in a 3man squad. If you really think a heavy flamer that you may or may not get to use is better than a combi-melta then keep it. I just think you'll have more trouble with heavy armor than anything else.

Halsfield wrote:

Sgt. Salt wrote:@ Hals

The termies have the heavy flamer chainfist guy so that even after they drop in they are still a valid threat.

Well you can keep the chainfist and go up to 3x combi-melta in a 3man squad. If you really think a heavy flamer that you may or may not get to use is better than a combi-melta then keep it. I just think you'll have more trouble with heavy armor than anything else.

I agree with this.

In our local store, the typical loadout is 4 termis, 3 combi-meltas w/1 chain fist and one heavy flamer termie.