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Alright, this has been bothering me for a long time. In the Daemonhunter Codex there is an upgrade for Psycannon Bolts. It explains this as replacing secondary weapon magazines with Psycannon Bolts instead of standard Bolter Ammunition. Continuing on it lists Heavy Bolters and Storm Bolters. From this could it not be inferred that this upgrade would carry over to Hurricane Bolters as well?

No, it does not carry over to Hurricane Bolters.

Well damn.

Sorry,a Hurricane Bolter is not a Bolter in the same way a Storm Bolter is not a Bolter. Damn proper nouns

Except a Hurricane Bolter "counts as three twin-linked boltguns" each, which is very different to Storm Bolters which make no mention of "counting as a bolter".

I'd say yes, you can combine them.

"Counts as" means you ARENT the thing. Otherwise you wouldnt be counting-as it, you would be it.

So no, it doesnt get the benefits. This isnt new, after many many years *nowhere* that I know of has *ever* allowed it.

Think this is a semantic thing here, you want to do something that while sounds logical because it has the word "bolter" in its name. Because Psycannon doesn't say hurricane bolter, and the codex gives a specific list, storm bolter, bolter, combi-bolter, or bolt pistol, no mention of hurricane. I would check the tank vehicle upgrades, which says, storm bolter or heavy bolter (twin linked or otherwise). once again no mention of hurricane. just because it doesn't say you can't doesn't mean you can.

nosferatu1001 wrote:"Counts as" means you ARENT the thing. Otherwise you wouldnt be counting-as it, you would be it.

So no, it doesnt get the benefits. This isnt new, after many many years *nowhere* that I know of has *ever* allowed it.

But where do you draw the line? If something "counts as" something else, then for all intents and purposes it is that thing. You can't just draw an arbitrary line - the Hurricane Bolters count as three twin-linked Bolters, so everything that a Bolter does (and that happens to Bolters) can be done by (and happen to) Hurricane Bolters.

Cheexsta wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:"Counts as" means you ARENT the thing. Otherwise you wouldnt be counting-as it, you would be it.

So no, it doesnt get the benefits. This isnt new, after many many years *nowhere* that I know of has *ever* allowed it.

But where do you draw the line? If something "counts as" something else, then for all intents and purposes it is that thing. You can't just draw an arbitrary line - the Hurricane Bolters count as three twin-linked Bolters, so everything that a Bolter does (and that happens to Bolters) can be done by (and happen to) Hurricane Bolters.

Except they aren't. They COUNT AS bolters else, because they aren't actually bolters.

Now I'm genuinely confused. Do I have a different definition of "counts as" to everyone else?

If I have a cookbook that says that "tomatoes count as vegetables [for the purposes of these recipes]" and a specific recipe calls for "any vegetable" to be used, would I not be able to use a tomato? While it is not technically a vegetable, it "counts as" a vegetable and so fits the requirements.

Or, more directly related to 40k, if a model has a special rule that says "power weapons are treated as normal close combat weapons against this model", would that prevent a unique weapon that "counts as a power weapon" from functioning, even though it might have a different name?

To me, if Weapon ABC "counts as" Weapon 123, then any rules interaction with Weapon 123 would also affect ABC.

if they were the same they would say so...

ie - hurricane bolters ARE three TL SB..

but they don't. they 'count as' so we can make the connection as to what they can do.

I'm not saying that a Hurricane Bolter IS three twin-linked bolters; I'm saying that because they "count as" three twin-linked bolters then they must be treated as three twin-linked bolters in every sense of the term. You can't just say that they are treated as twin-linked bolters for one or two things but not for everything else.

Then why not just say 'hey the LRC has three TLB on each side' I understand what you're saying too. I just wish we had a clearer definition for "counts as" I guess.

i think this is easy, read the rules, the simplest explanation is usually the best, the codex does not list 'the hurrican bolter' as an option to receive psycannon ammo, it should be as simple as that. all this 'counts as' stuff, is really just an easier way of GW telling you to use 'the other' weapons profile,save's them some print space.

I completely agree with Cheexsta, and that's where my original confusion came from. It just doesn't make sense that a weapon that is in every way per-described as a Bolter just changes because in the definition includes "Count As" isn't covered by the upgrade.

The book came out after the tank, so if you could upgrade to Psycannon it would be on the list of vehicle upgrades. and its not.
The only thing listed are storm bolters, and heavy bolters.

It doesn't even matter if they were bolters because only storm bolters and heavy bolters benefit from the vehicle upgrade "Psycannon bolts"


Had two onlys in there :/

nivondu wrote:Then why not just say 'hey the LRC has three TLB on each side' I understand what you're saying too. I just wish we had a clearer definition for "counts as" I guess.

Because they they would have to add a line of text that states a weapon destroyed result kills all 3. And GW is cheep so they chose to cop-out with counts as to save printing cost.

Clthomps wrote:

nivondu wrote:Then why not just say 'hey the LRC has three TLB on each side' I understand what you're saying too. I just wish we had a clearer definition for "counts as" I guess.

Because they they would have to add a line of text that states a weapon destroyed result kills all 3. And GW is cheep so they chose to cop-out with counts as to save printing cost.

Surely the cost is completely negligible?

If I were to write the rules for Hurricane Bolters (and do it properly), I'd give it two modes, ala Missile Launcher, which would also open up the option of having something with a non twin linked Hurricane Bolter:

Hurricane Bolter (Close):
R12", S4, AP5, Heavy 6

Hurricane Bolter (Ranged):
R24, S4, AP5, Heavy 3

Gwar! wrote:

Clthomps wrote:

nivondu wrote:Then why not just say 'hey the LRC has three TLB on each side' I understand what you're saying too. I just wish we had a clearer definition for "counts as" I guess.

Because they they would have to add a line of text that states a weapon destroyed result kills all 3. And GW is cheep so they chose to cop-out with counts as to save printing cost.

Surely the cost is completely negligible?

If I were to write the rules for Hurricane Bolters (and do it properly), I'd give it two modes, ala Missile Launcher, which would also open up the option of having something with a non twin linked Hurricane Bolter:

Hurricane Bolter (Close):
R12", S4, AP5, Heavy 6

Hurricane Bolter (Ranged):
R24, S4, AP5, Heavy 3

So.. If the rules were just like ML, so 2 modes you'd have to use choose one mode before firing. You choose "Close", and the target is 13" away -> you miss. No Heavy 3 hits.. I understand that with 3 bolters you shoot and THEN if the target is <12" it's shooting 3, if 12" to 24" it's 6.. Or am I wrong here?

Macok wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Clthomps wrote:

nivondu wrote:Then why not just say 'hey the LRC has three TLB on each side' I understand what you're saying too. I just wish we had a clearer definition for "counts as" I guess.

Because they they would have to add a line of text that states a weapon destroyed result kills all 3. And GW is cheep so they chose to cop-out with counts as to save printing cost.

Surely the cost is completely negligible?

If I were to write the rules for Hurricane Bolters (and do it properly), I'd give it two modes, ala Missile Launcher, which would also open up the option of having something with a non twin linked Hurricane Bolter:

Hurricane Bolter (Close):
R12", S4, AP5, Heavy 6

Hurricane Bolter (Ranged):
R24, S4, AP5, Heavy 3

So.. If the rules were just like ML, so 2 modes you'd have to use choose one mode before firing. You choose "Close", and the target is 13" away -> you miss. No Heavy 3 hits.. I understand that with 3 bolters you shoot and THEN if the target is <12" it's shooting 3, if 12" to 24" it's 6.. Or am I wrong here?

No, you are right. Heh, I guess there IS method in GW's madness.

The reason I always knew Psycannon bolts didn't work with the Hurricane Bolters is that Psycannon rounds re for SECONDARY ARMAMENTS and the Hurricanes are the primary weapons.

Gwar! wrote:Except they aren't. They COUNT AS bolters else, because they aren't actually bolters.

So what do you perscribe to things that 'count as'? If they dont take on all the attributes of the things they are mimicing then surely they would take on none of them. Your logic suggests that because they arent actually bolters they have no weapon profile and so are useless. 'Count as' in terms of weapons and abilities is not defined anywhere in the rules so it comes down to reasonable logic. This being the case then surely things that 'count as' something else take on all the attributes of what theya re mimicing because that makes most sense. Anything else is simply a houserule.

It states it can be bought for Bolters, not Hurricane bolters.

End of.

But hurricane bolters count as bolters. Otherwise the weapons do nothing as they have no profile of their own. So hurricane bolters for all intents and purposes are bolters, and I can buy psycannon bolts for bolters.

If you say they cant without giving good reason then presumably you play that DH crusaders have two sponson weapons that are unable to shoot.

Does the vehicle armoury let you buy them for Bolters, or Storm Bolters?

Storm Bolters /= Bolters OR Hurricane Bolters.

I just checked my copy of Daemon Hunters and the Land Raider listed there can not take any optional equipment but it has twin linked lascannons in each sponson and a twin linked heavy bolter on its hull. So I fail to see the relevance of that particular point.

LR Crusaders are what were taling about.

Asking if the Psycannon bolts can be, on vehicles, bought for SB or Bolters. If they have seperated them out into vehicle and nonvehcile then stating you can use them with Bolters would be pointless, as vehicles dont carry bolters...

Alriiiiiight, now I see where I've gone wrong. I was looking at the regular Psycannon Bolts upgrade, not the one for vehicles which specifies Storm Bolters and Heavy Bolters.

Sigh. This is why you never get in a rules debate at 3am...

So, in retrospect: no, the Psycannon Bolts do nothing for your Hurricane Bolters.

Yes. It's always amazing whenever this topic comes up, because honestly, all it takes is a little reading comprehension to get your answer.