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Ok, I had found a list that I was relatively happy with, and it was doing OK on a local level - not brilliantly, but OK. However after putting it up to critique online to try to get something better out of it, I was told that it, plain and simply, sucks.

Here's the list as it used to stand:

HQ
Captain: Combi-Melta, Thunder Hammer, Artificer Armour & Iron Halo.
155

Command Squad: Apothecary (BP & CCW), Company Standard (BP & CCW), 1 Bolt Pistol & Thunder Hammer & 2 Flamers. Razorback: TL HB.

Elites
Terminator Squad: Storm Bolter & Power Weapon, 9 Terminators, 2 Chainfists & 2 Heavy Flamers.
420

Troops
Tactical Squad 1 - Sergeant: Bolt Pistol & Power Weapon. 9 Marines: 7 Bolters, , 1 Meltagun & 1 Plasma Cannon. Rhino.
230

Tactical Squad 2 - Sergeant: Bolt Pistol & Power Weapon. 9 Marines: 7 Bolters, , 1 Meltagun & 1 Plasma Cannon. Rhino.
230

Tactical Squad 3 - Sergeant: Combi-Melta & Meltabombs. 4 Marines: 4 Bolters. Razorback: Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter.
145

Fast Attack
Assault Squad - Sergeant: Bolt Pistol & Thunder Hammer. 4 Marines: 3 Bolt Pistols & CCWs, 1 Flamer. Rhino.
140

Heavy Support
Devastator Squad 1 - Sergeant: Bolter & Signum. 4 Marines: 1 Bolter, 1 Multi-Melta & 2 Missile Launchers. Razorback: Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter.
175

Devastator Squad 2 - Sergeant: Bolter & Signum. 4 Marines: 1 Bolter, 1 Multi-Melta & 2 Missile Launchers. Razorback: Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter.
175

Predator: Autocannon & Lascannons
120

2000 points exactly

The general plan was that the Command Squad and large Tactical Units push the offensive, the Devastators and Predator provide long-range anti-tank firepower (and also anti-infantry in the case of the Devastators), the small Tactical and Assault Squads are used to either hold any home objectives, or claim enemy ones, and the Terminators are to deepstrike wherever they can do most damage.

A fairly fluffy list, but it was seriously torn apart (probably understandably). Here's what I was told was wrong with it:

- The Captain is apparently an awful HQ choice; compounded by the fact that Command Squads apparently suck if not on bikes.
- The Terminators, without either the Cyclone or Assault Cannon are going to be useless and die to AP2 fire, and the TH/SS Termiantors are flat-out better in every situation.
- Razorbacks are awful, especially with the Heavy Bolter.
- Assault Squad is far too small to be useful.
- Devastators are terrible (this I know, but they're really fluffy), especially since they're in yet more Razorbacks.

Now the trouble is that I am trying to build a fluffy Salamander force based (mostly) around a single Company, and I had some sweet conversions in mind for the Command Squad. It doesn't help that the Salamanders have restricted access to Bikes/Speeders, some of the best units in the Codex; and have a fair few Devastator Squads, some of the worst units in the codex. I also want a Mechanised force.

I really don't want to use Vulkan - I know that he's an awesome character, but I don't like his equipment, value Combat Tactics, and at the local leagues Special Characters tend to be frowned on heavily.

So I tried to take some of the advice to heart, and came up with the following idea. Please tell me whether you think it's better-or-worse than the list above, and if it's still awful what you would do in order to create a fluffy Salamander Company list without leaning on Vulkan for the HQ.

HQ
Captain: Combi-Melta, Thunder Hammer, Artificer Armour & Iron Halo.
155

Librarian: Force Weapon, Storm Shield, Terminator Armour. (probably uses Avenger and Might of the Ancients/Null Zone)
140

Elites
Terminator Assault Squad - 5 Thunder Hammers & Storm Shield. Land Raider Redeemer: Multi-Melta.
450

Troops
Tactical Squad 1 - Sergeant: Bolt Pistol & Power Weapon. 9 Marines: 7 Bolters, , 1 Meltagun & 1 Plasma Cannon. Rhino.
230

Tactical Squad 2 - Sergeant: Bolt Pistol & Power Weapon. 9 Marines: 7 Bolters, , 1 Meltagun & 1 Plasma Cannon. Rhino.
230

Tactical Squad 3 - Sergeant: Combi-Melta. 4 Marines: 4 Bolters. Razorback: Lascannon & Twin-Linked Plasma Gun.
175

Fast Attack
Assault Squad 1 - Sergeant: Bolt Pistol & Thunder Hammer. 4 Marines: 4 Bolt Pistols & CCWs. Rhino.
140

Assault Squad 2 - Sergeant: Bolt Pistol & Thunder Hammer. 4 Marines: 4 Bolt Pistols & CCWs. Rhino.
140

Heavy Support
Devastator Squad 1 - Sergeant: Bolter & Signum. 4 Marines: 1 Bolter, 1 Multi-Melta & 2 Missile Launchers. Razorback: Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter.
175

Devastator Squad 2 - Sergeant: Bolter & Signum. 4 Marines: 1 Bolter, 1 Multi-Melta & 2 Missile Launchers. Razorback: Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter.
175

1990 points

It's a similar idea this time, except:

Land Raider, Assault Terminators and Librarian spearhead my assault.
Devastators provide the firepower on their own (Missiles for range, BS5 Melta shot at short)
The Tactical Squad is joined by the Captain, and tag-teams with both Assault Squads to guard, or take, enemy objectives. The idea here being with 2-3 units attacking Monsters/Tanks/Infantry the enemy is going to have a hard time killing off the Thunder Hammers, helping them chew through the target.

Obviously the Devastators are not a competitive unit - this I know, and I'm trying to work around. I could swap the Assault Squads for a pair of Dreadnoughts, however I have some conversions in mind for Power-Armoured Thunder Hammers that I really, really want to use.

Now for flexibility I could always swap the Librarian for a pair of MM/HF Land Speeders, which (although it's 3 FA units) wouldn't be a breach of the fluff thanks to be using Rhinos instead of Jump Packs for the Assault Marines, however at the moment the Librarian is probably quite useful (Psychic Hood, stopping Inv. saves, adding some I4 attacks to the TH/SS Terminators)

So what do you reckon all-round? Is the second list marginally better, or does the first offer a lot more flexibility? Where am I still going wrong, within the constraints of trying to keep to the fluff (which is probably the first place I'm going wrong - I know fluffy often isn't competitive, and this isn't meant to be cut-throat, I just don't want a list that totally sucks)?

If your playing a Salamander list I would recommend taking Vulcan...

There are better options then what you are fielding. Look at some of the other lists out and see what other people are taking. I thin you ahve some great elements but need to be a bit more choosy. Vulkan in a Vulkan list for example is a great character.

who cares if the local gamers don't like SCs.

Vulkan is the one SC i like and unless you have him your just playing Space marines painted Green who have lots of meltas.

Vulkan is a force multiplier like no other, making EVERY Flamer, heavy flamer and Melta weapon in your army twin linked is awsome.


My reccomendations

get Vulken

swap those tactical terminators for Assault terminators with TH/SS

get rid of the Dev squads (you will hardly ever use the multi-meltas as non-mech Multi-meltas are easy to avoid) and replace them with a couple of Ironclad Dreadnoughts with melta guns and Heavy flamers for even more TL goodness

Maybe a couple of attack bikes with multi-meltas for soem really scary anti-tank abilities


You MM/HF speeder idea is good.

your second list is better, but needs some work.

you want to spam as many weapons that will benifit from Vulkan if you take him.

if you don't take him your army is, IMHO, just a fluffy space marine army.

it seems alright but I have a couple of improvements to your list
1 WHERE THE HELL IS VULKAN!!
2 I would drop the assualt ssquads and take land speeders with multi meltas instead works alot better for me.
3 go thunder hammer terminators with Vulkan they become awesome
4 for your third tac squad you must have ten man squad to use the heavy weps for it.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2010/04/40k-in-defense-of-space-marine-captains.html

Good article from Bell of Lost Souls about ordinary Captain usage !!

I, for one, think it is totally fine if you don't like Vulkan and don't want to field him. If your objective is not to build an uber competitive tournament list then leave him out. If nothing else it will make your army stand out from the endless horde of mech Vulkan space marine lists out there.

As far as the list goes I think you should shuffle some stuff around. I personally don't like five man assault squads because if they take one or two casualties on their way to the target they will usually struggle to overcome the unit they are attacking. I would combine both units into either A) a ten man unit with two flamers or B) a nine man unit with one flamer so that the captain can join them.

The devastator squads also need some work imho. I understand your idea with the multi-melta, I really do. However, for it to be significantly better than a missile launcher it needs to hit a vehicle within 12" and this is probably not going to happen, as only a madman would drive a vehicle within a foot of a devastator packing a multi-melta. Also, its short maximum range of 24" means that to even be able to use the thing you need to deploy your devastators in the battle line where they will be much more vulnerable. I think you should toss the razorbacks and the multi-meltas and go for units with 4 missile launchers. They are versatile and can kill a vehicle from twice the range that a multi-melta can even reach. This will allow you to keep you small units of devastators way in the back, and hopefully safe. If you want multi-meltas for your infantry I would but them in the two ten man tactical squads.

Hope this helps some.

I'd like to thank everyone for their thoughts.

I will just say that I really don't want to use Vulkan - it's not just that the local players frown upon him (and the reason I care is that I want people to play with!); but also that I really value the usefulness of "Combat Tactics" and I think that Vulkan costs a lot for a single model. I've also spent a fair amount of money converting up my current Captain.

However, I have revised the list based on some suggestions here. I'll add explanations for how I intend to use stuff at the end.

HQ

Captain: Combi-Melta, Thunder Hammer & Iron Halo.
140

Elites

Terminator Assault Squad - Sergeant: Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield. 9 Terminators: 9 Thunder Hammers & Storm Shields.
400

Troops

Tactical Squad 1 - Sergeant: Bolt Pistol, Power Weapon & Teleport Homer. 9 Marines: 7 Bolters, 1 Flamer & 1 Multi-Melta. Rhino.
235

Tactical Squad 2 - Sergeant: Bolt Pistol, Power Weapon & Teleport Homer. 9 Marines: 7 Bolters, 1 Flamer & 1 Multi-Melta. Rhino.
235

Tactical Squad 3 - Sergeant: Bolt Pistol & CCW. 4 Tactical Marines: 4 Bolters. Razorback: Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter.
130

Scout Squad - Sergeant: Bolter. 4 Scouts: 3 Bolters & 1 Heavy Bolter.
85

Fast Attack

Assault Squad 1 - Sergeant: Bolt Pistol & Thunder Hammer. 4 Marines: 4 Bolt Pistols & CCWs. Rhino.
130

Assault Squad 2 - Sergeant: Bolt Pistol & Thunder Hammer. 4 Marines: 4 Bolt Pistols & CCWs. Rhino.
130

Land Speeder Squadron - 2 Land Speeders: Heavy Flamers & Typhoon Missile Launchers.
180

Heavy Support

Devastator Squad 1 - Sergeant: Bolter & Signum. 4 Marines: 1 Bolter & 3 Multi-Meltas. Razorback: Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter.
175

Devastator Squad 2 - Sergeant: Bolter & Signum. 4 Marines: 2 Bolters & 2 Missile Launchers. Razorback: Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter.
160

2000

The idea with the Terminators is that they can split into 2x5 when Deepstriking upon a successful reserve roll. This, combined with the Teleport Homers, means I can support the Tactical Squads with powerful CC units (and expand my attacking force in the blink of an eye), and the Tacticals can make up for the weaknesses of the Terminators in regards to more numerous foes. Because the Tacticals are quite key to my game-plan, and would be very vulnerable to Ordnance Templates, I have selected the Typhoons to engage enemy armour (and later light-infantry) as a supporting element.

So that's the 2x10-man Tacticals and Typhoons advancing, ideally with support of the Terminators.

The Devastators have been split into a long-range unit and a short-range unit - the short-range pushing up the board whilst the Missiles provide cover-fire. The idea behind the Melta-unit is precisely, as pointed out earlier, that the enemy won't drive any armour near it. This means that I can divert/prevent some serious enemy units (like rival TH/SS in Land Raider) from jumping on the Tactical Marines before my own Terminators arrive.

So those units provide some cover-fire of more anti-tank variety (although the Missile Launchers can engage enemy infantry too, as can the Razorbacks).

The 5-man Tactical (joined with Captain) and the 2x5 Assault Squads can advance to engage the enemy as everything else advances, or be used to hold objectives in my home-zone. I accept that they are still weak to CC (see one of the refinements I could make), but I quite like the units - and with both engaging the enemy simultaneously at least 1 Hammer should survive to do damage.

The Scouts were originally in the list so that I could support the Assault Squads with the 5-man Tactical Squad on the offensive, whilst still claiming a home-objective. However I am having second-thoughts about them.

With that in mind, I can make the following changes:

1) Swap the Scouts for a Predator (AC/HB) to provide a little more anti-Transport firepower and an armoured target to draw anti-tank firepower.

or

2) Drop the Scouts, grab 1 extra Marine for each Assault Unit (helps survivability - with 5 "ablative wounds" before the enemy gets to the Hammer it's fairly likely to swing against anything that needs it), grab another Missile Launcher in the 2nd Dev unit (more long-ranged anti-tank), and add a Teleport Homer and Power Weapon to the 5-man Tactical Squad (so that if it's supporting the Assault Squads a Terminator Squad can land to add extra weight, if only 1 is needed to support the Tacticals; or if left on it's own whilst the Assault Marines go on the offensive and the enemy is approaching my lightly-held objective, I can again call down the Terminators to add some more oomph and uite likely hold the objective).

At the moment option 2 is looking quite attractive, but I thought I'd see what you guys think of this version of the list (now that it has the pretty popular-and-useful Typhoons).