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When Yatiri is talking about the Eldar and Dark Eldar (after ahriman tells lemaul about his powers),why doesn't the Thousand son guy (forgot his name, the book's at school) make the connection between the Eldar and "Elohim" ?

Did the Imperium not know about the eldar's rise and fall? The eldar are obviously still around, as there are several references to them from the imperial perspective (like when they talk about passing a craftworld in space without harm).

I would imagine that the entire rise and fall thing is kinda under wraps to outsiders of the Eldar. I mean running around saying "we created a choas god" would not go over well with most people. So I don't think they would make the connection.

It is very shameful to them that it happened. It is not something that any of them are proud of and something they try and conceal from most. A few Imperial scholars know but I'm not sure many outside the Ordo Mallus and general Inquisition are. Not sure they need to be either. SM don't need to know the history of a xeno, only how to kill it.

Don't forget that the Imperium is unaware, by and large, that Chaos even exists at this time. They're still very much in the period of the Imperial Truth - that there are no gods, daemons or spirits.

The Eldar are just occasionally-met or fought pirates or lone warbands.

Nothing else is known about them. He wouldn't have made the connection because nothing is known about them.

I would think though, that the Emperor knows all about it, and so could the Primarchs. I figure they would have to know about all potential enemies out there. Magnus knew what the webway portal in the cave was (but maybe not exactly who it's creators were, etc).

What I am not sure about is the timing of the first meaningfull encounters between the Imperium and the Eldar. When exactly was the whole Eldrad/Fulgrim debacle? It is during the crusades, but when exactly? Was there any significant contact before that?

Great answers! That's what I wanted to hear. Especially your miraclefish, that was really informative.

Although, your answer gave me another question. Do the psykers (most notably the sekhmet and ahriman) know about chaos? Do they know that chaos is what inhabits the great ocean? Or do they just know it's a malevolent force on general?

Read the book...it tells you...

It's a 6 hundred page book. easier said than done!

TBD wrote:

When exactly was the whole Eldrad/Fulgrim debacle? It is during the crusades, but when exactly?

Eldrad tried to contact Fulgrim too late when he was already under the influence of the demon weapon,
just before Fulgrim was enroute to meet Horus.

The indecisiveness of the Eldar cost them their chance to achieve anything in the Heresy.

Or it was the actions of the Chaos Gods (particularly Slaanesh) clouding the Farseer's vision of the future. Remember the Great Ocean is Chaos, and Chaos is the Chaos Gods.

Nurglitch wrote:Or it was the actions of the Chaos Gods (particularly Slaanesh) clouding the Farseer's vision of the future. Remember the Great Ocean is Chaos, and Chaos is the Chaos Gods.

I thought Chaos is just part of the Great Ocean (although probably a very large part of it), given the whole debate about whether or not warp-related powers can be used for "good", or if they are unquestionably "evil". If they concluded it is "evil" by definition I don't think any of the current Marine chapters, other Imperium factions or Eldar would be using these powers since they would basically be using heretical powers.

Read Codex: Chaos Daemons. Chaos is the Warp, the Warp is Chaos. That's why psychic powers are regarded with suspicion and revulsion: the lines between psychic powers, witchcraft, and outright sorcery are virtually non-existent.

As for "using powers for good", that sort of reductivist discussion is asinine given what we know about the nature of 40k: Psychic powers are used to change, to destroy, to conceal, and to preserve things. Whether do so is 'good' depends on the perspective of those being changed, destroyed, conceal, or preserved.

Only by using psychic power in a disinterested way can a psyker avoid the attention of the Dark Powers. By drawing down too much, or for selfish purposes, the psyker attracts the attention of the attention of those that are ultimately self-annihilation. See Codex: Chaos Space Marines for details. Believing otherwise is Pride, which Magnus and the Thousand Sons have/had in spades, and that comes before the Fall.

Which makes the position of the Emperor again very interesting. Wasn't he the most powerful human psyker ever known? He drew a lot of attention from the warp creatures I am sure, so how exactly did it affect him?

Ahriman had to fight the warp predators when he visited, and the more time spent there the bigger the predators got. Figuring Ahriman was a small fish compared to the Emperor, how many and how big were the warp creatures the Emperor fought? I haven't seen any mention of him having any ill warp effects or getting injured in these struggles (but then again I have not read all the novels/background stories).

Also, I would think that if Magnus was able to go through the "Great Ocean" all the way through the Emperor's machine into his throne room and appear before him like he did in the novel, then why wouldn't some of the more powerful chaotic entities be able to do just the same? Why did none of them try to kill the Emperor or try to possess him (as far as we know)? Or maybe one of them did? Or maybe he really was able to fight off the Chaos gods? Lots of questions.

TBD wrote:Which makes the position of the Emperor again very interesting. Wasn't he the most powerful human psyker ever known? He drew a lot of attention from the warp creatures I am sure, so how exactly did it affect him?

It didn't. The Empra's Soul was forged from bajillions of Human Shamans. It was more than strong enough to battle off Chaos entities.

The webway was designed as a means to traverse the warp without coming into contact with chaos. It was thanks to Magnus' blundering that the webway gate by Earth was damaged thus allowing daemons to pour through.

It may be that Magnus was allowed to travel to warn the Emperor because the chaos gods knew what damage his trip would cause.

Gwar! wrote:

TBD wrote:Which makes the position of the Emperor again very interesting. Wasn't he the most powerful human psyker ever known? He drew a lot of attention from the warp creatures I am sure, so how exactly did it affect him?

It didn't. The Empra's Soul was forged from bajillions of Human Shamans. It was more than strong enough to battle off Chaos entities.

where did you get that from? im not questioning its real i genuinelly want to know

One of the older canons about the ol' Emprah. IIRC that's the one that's still valid... I think.

Gwar wrote:It didn't. The Empra's Soul was forged from bajillions of Human Shamans. It was more than strong enough to battle off Chaos entities.

Original Realm of Chaos books. Star Child etc etc

Xca|iber wrote:One of the older canons about the ol' Emprah. IIRC that's the one that's still valid... I think.

It is indeed still valid.

Xca|iber wrote:One of the older canons about the ol' Emprah. IIRC that's the one that's still valid... I think.

Gamble wrote:

Gwar wrote:It didn't. The Empra's Soul was forged from bajillions of Human Shamans. It was more than strong enough to battle off Chaos entities.

Original Realm of Chaos books. Star Child etc etc

Firesolved wrote:

Xca|iber wrote:One of the older canons about the ol' Emprah. IIRC that's the one that's still valid... I think.

It is indeed still valid.

So its assumed to be valid when GW didn't replace it ?
Its also unheard of in any official GW publication over the last 12 years...

Maybe the companys own fluff "masters" didn't remember it?

1hadhq wrote:

Firesolved wrote:

Xca|iber wrote:One of the older canons about the ol' Emprah. IIRC that's the one that's still valid... I think.

It is indeed still valid.

So its assumed to be valid when GW didn't replace it ?
Its also unheard of in any official GW publication over the last 12 years...

Maybe the companys own fluff "masters" didn't remember it?

This is what we like to call "semantics".

When something isn't replaced but is already out there, it is safe to assume that, yes, indeed it is still valid.

And that's why you don't have to renew any license you own. Once you have your driver's license, there's never any need to have its validity renewed...

Nurglitch wrote:And that's why you don't have to renew any license you own. Once you have your driver's license, there's never any need to have its validity renewed...

Not really.
Some places like to see you again regularly if youre interested in steering a bus ( transporting more than 7 persons ) or Trucks.

1hadhq wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:And that's why you don't have to renew any license you own. Once you have your driver's license, there's never any need to have its validity renewed...

Not really.
Some places like to see you again regularly if youre interested in steering a bus ( transporting more than 7 persons ) or Trucks.

Or CCW licenses (in certain states).

lol what? Close combat weapon licenses?

Samus_aran115 wrote:lol what? Close combat weapon licenses?

....carrying a concealed weapon....geeze....go outside more.

Firesolved wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:lol what? Close combat weapon licenses?

....carrying a concealed weapon....geeze....go outside more.

Outside? What's that? Some kind of beverage?

Gwar! wrote:

Firesolved wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:lol what? Close combat weapon licenses?

....carrying a concealed weapon....geeze....go outside more.

Outside? What's that? Some kind of beverage?

Yes. Go drink Outside. It is awesome.

Wasn't the whole Star Child debacle the interpretation of one, small cult? The Illuminati? And weren't they rounded up and destroyed by the Inquisition at the start of 3ed?

It's mentioned a couple of times in the HH books that the Emperor bargained with Chaos for power, which is why he wouldn't have been attacked. Horus was told by Erebus that the Emperor got the power to create the Primarchs from the Chaos Gods - that he made a deal with them that he broke shortly before the Great Crusade began. Not the most reliable source of information, is Erebus, but everything else he said was technically true if missing a few salient pieces of information to put it into the correct context.

Then in 'Thousand Sons' Magnus mentions in passing that the Emperor had bargained with daemons once before, long ago. It's at the bit where Magnus is exploring the warp, early in the book.

So yeah, he bargains with Chaos for his power then breaks the deal. After he breaks the deal, we see just how fast the Emperor lasts when the Chaos Gods turn their attention upon him! I'm pretty sure they could've just doused Terra in a warp storm, killing everything on the surface, but took a perverse pleasure in turning his own treasured sons against him and plunging his empire into civil war.

Then they let his son gut him. Possibly the Chaos Gods arranged the whole thing - forcing Horus' shields down to allow the Emperor to attack. Destroying Horus' soul in front of the Emperor themselves to torment him. Leaving him at the brink of death purposefully, knowing that he would be forced to endure thousands of years of constant agony, and to watch as his Imperium degenerates into the very thing he fought against.

Oh yes, you don't mess with the Chaos Gods!

I thought it went something like;
1) Shamans around earth are psychic and know each other. They they die and are reincarnated.

2)They keep dying, but not reincarnating. Souls that don't reincarnate start to make up the star child, or the shamans warp conciousness.

3)Bunch of shamans commit mass suicide and many of them combe back in a single body, the Emperor.

4) Illuminati/ Sensei are children of the Emperor no?