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Does a magic standard that grants frenzy to a unit stop after the unit fails a break test? Or should it just continue to grant frenzy because it is granted by a magic item and not just an ability of the unit.

It goes away unless it specifically says otherwise.

thats dumb

Should the magic banner continue to grant frenzy if the unit fails a break test?

If they are not unbreakable, they would run, drop their standard, and it would be captured by the enemy. So yes, they would lose frenzy as they would no longer have the standard that gives them frenzy.

A better question would be would they lose frenzy if they were beaten in combat but did not break. That question I do not have the answer to.

Nothing states the unit has "special" Frenzy, therefore if they lose the combat and dont break, they no longer have Frenzy.

I would agree, citing banner of rage from WoC as evidence. It specifically states that the frenzy given isn't lost if beaten...

i can see how it would work in the sense of the game, but is the banner no longer a banner thats magic that grants frenzy? Our is a failed break test mean that the magic somehow paniced? Doesn't the unit still hold a magic banner that causes frenzy? Its not a unit specific ability but is granted by the banner. which they still have in there possesion that to my knowledge says that it grants frenzy to the unit. otherwise could someone let me know what page I can find in the rulebook to see that in failed break test that units drop magic standards.

I've always played it that it, banner of Rage, that is grants frenzy even if you lose the combat, but make the break test. Fail the break test, lose the banner when running.I haven't used the item in a long time due to not getting many games in, so I might be wrong. It would be way better for sustained frenzy and unbreakable. Great fluff wise and game wise.

Neo, when your unit fails a break test that means it is going to run from combat. At that point you drop your standard. It is either captured by the enemy if they give chase, or it is lost forever if they do not. Magical standards are irrelevant to that ruling. A standard, is a standard. It is lost, the minute your unit breaks from combat. The rule for this is located on page 80 of the rulebook. It is a few paragraphs long, so I do not feel like typing it out. The bottom line is if you ***fail a break test*** you lose your standard.

This rule also goes for the BSB, and it is described on page 82. This one is an even longer rule, but ultimately says the same things. If your BSB breaks from combat, his standard is lost as well.

For the "will they lose frenzy if they lose combat but still hold" both Nosferatu and Kiwidru have provided examples of how the rulings need to be permissable. The WoC standard specifically states that the unit will keep frenzy should they lose combat. All other standards that provide frenzy must then specifically state that the unit keeps frenzy should they lose combat but still hold.

the way I saw the banner of rage working is this.

IF you lose the combat and make the break test obviously you keep the frenzy rule but if you fail the break test and lose the banner I say you do have frenzy still but if you lose another round of combat (so you rally then charge again) you lose the frenzy.

Then again I haven't had a chance to try this out so after reading above consider me wrong

It's the banner giving you frenzy. If that gets lost then you lose frenzy immediately.

Another example: empire flagellants are specifically stated to never lose their frenzy even when they lose combat (btw they ALWAYS lose combat). There are dozens of examples like this, which clearly indicate that if the banner of rage wanted you to keep your frenzy when you lost combat, it would say so in the army list.

I note also that if you've got frenzied, immune to psychology chaos knights with a silly armor save and a standard, they should not be losing combat unless you have made a grievous error.

good examples:

1) dark elf banner gives frenzy

2) WoC banner gives frenzy and says unit doesn't lose frenzy if beaten in combat

it would seem to infer that regardless of the idea of a state-based effect constantly modifying a unit, that it must say 'frenzy doesn't go away if beaten' if they are supposed to keep it after losing.

I'd agree with infreak about the Banner of Rage, though I can see how it could be determined otherwise (the banner gives the unit Frenzy as a one-time, non-static thing, and therefore its effect continues even after its gone, just like you would stay frenzied if a wizard who cast a spell on you that made you so died afterward).

Nemoaddler, I can see what you're sayin', but I'd consider it this way: frenzy is about getting all hyped up and crazy before a fight. If you lose a round of combat, you lose your hype. In this case, the banner is causing that hype via magic; it can still be lost in the same way as mundane frenzy unless it states otherwise.