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Just got 3 scout bikes as I found out the hard way (mid battle) last week that a teleport homer is not what I thought it was, but a locator beacon is.

Then I noticed the scout bikes entry, which to be honest I hadnt actually noticed at all before lol, and thought they looked great. Astartes grenade launchers / tl bolters, AND shotguns, pistol, frag and krak grenades, never mind infiltration and scout moves, then the benefits of being on a bike! Great.

I havent used them yet but I may do tonight. Anyone got anything against them based on experience? Most people I know dont have much to say about them but at the same time generally dislike them.

What do you mean:

grenade launchers / tl bolters, AND shotguns, pistol

Are you implying you can shoot both as you can't.

If not, the TL bolters are superior to both the pistol and shotguns.

Anyway, Infiltration and Scout moves are generally the be all and end all the scout squads before the AGL's. It is their role, their function, their reason for existing even.

Why do people dislike them?
They are not durable and their abilities are generally involved in trick pony combos.

They can be annoying and can do disruption real well, but their milage comes mostly from opponent inexperience.

I've been using 10 man squads of them in my all-biker lists... if I have first turn, they combat squad, infiltrate, and go after 2 targets. Last game I used them, the 5 man combat squad with just bolter bikers scouted and assaulted into a predator annihiliator, killing it with grenades. The 5 man combat squad with 3x grenade launchers and a power fist combat scouted behind his defilier, rapid fired grenades into its rear armor, then assaulted it. Pen 6'd it after all that.

Good stuff.

Yea, but it's not hard to counter and is again, a trick pony unit.
Hitting a Defiler on the back is poor placement of the Chaos Player.

But yea, that whole example shows the whole disruption side of things they are capable of... just don't expect them to live after committing.

What kills them for me is the lack of scoring, eating up a FA slot, and dying horribly to hvy flamer equivalents.

I play an all-biker list and they just don't mesh very well IMO.

As Sanctjud said, they're very trick pony style.

But, they do have a wide variety of tricks to play. You can load them up on AGLs, and go for light armor killing, or rapid-fired Blast templates against low T opponents.
You can outflank them, and Turbo Boost for late-game disruption, or backfield chaos.
Or, you can use them as a highly-mobile deepstriker delivery system via Locator Beacon. Works with pods, Terminators, and jump packers.

The challenges for any of these methods becomes balancing squad size against utility. If you're just using them as a beacon delivery method, you have to take enough to soak casualties, but take few enough to be able to get cover saves from shooting. You could take a unit of 10 and combat squad, but only the sergeant has the beacon. You also have to put them in position a turn early, which generally means you're trying to place them close to the enemy, and hoping to survive the damage your opponent will throw at them, AND that your reserve rolls come up properly.
The Scout statline is a hindrance to both their survivability, and offensive capabilities. 4+ armor is too easy to get past, considering the number of heavy bolter equivalents in various armies. And BS3 can result in a lot of misses when you're firing those AGLs. They are not twin-linked like the bolters.

They're a fun unit to play with, but they won't win you any Grand Tournaments.

their definitely a fiddly unit to play with. Their overcosted, but not useless... they have some potential to really do some amazing things. In my area comp is a huge component of tournaments, so my scout bikers always have a slot in my lists. 'ardboyz... not so much.

They are still toughness 5... meaning getting a first turn charge off on a squad of lootas / eldar / guard / tac marines without power swords will tie up whatever you charge for a long while... and might kill a few things, if your sarge has a fist.

Thanks for all the advice!

I think theyl be more use to me than a waste, especially as I only have a 10man assault squad as my fast attack at the moment. I think my 3rd choice will be Vanguard, so the beacon is for me the main reason for taking them.

Also got a drop pod for my 10 sternguard so I was thinking, deploy somewhere centre-ish of the board, drop the sternguard, move up with the bikes and ds the vanguard!

I have just been debating trying out some scout bikers to use the locator beacons for drop pods. But decided against them because they cost around 100 points for 3 models with a beacon and take a Fast Attack slot. Now if they was scoring that would be a different story.

I've run them 6 strong with 3 Gl's and a power fist to pretty decent effect. They netted me 3 dead Typhoons in 1 game. I've had them decimate seraphim and dark reapers as well. They die easy but I've found they make a real fun outflanking unit. The Krack grenades aren't terribly reliable, but the frags can be brutal if you are within 12.

The first turn assault can be a neat trick but it can definitely backfire.

Cheers,
~Volkan

I think they are great, perhaps not tournament worthy, but certainly fun.

Use them for an alpha strike pod assault. I like to use a 10 man stern guard squad with all combi weapons, pod down on the scout bikers beacon, combat squad and pop two tanks/units.

That does rely on going first though, or hiding the bikers for a turn, then turbo boosting them to where you need them.

Another great use is meltabombs or a combi melta on sarge and gong for the first turn tank pop.

My favorite way to use them though, is in a gate of infinity libby army.

Take two libbys with gate each with a ten wan squad of sternguard or terminators, a pod or two with beacons and a squad of bikers with a beacon and the termies and libby gate around with no scatter wasting whatever you need them to hit. Works great, is fun and a really different way to play marines.

Lastly, scout bikers are great for jumping into a shooty squad that can get tied up in combat like long fangs, devs, dark reapers, broadsides, etc. Giving sarge a fist or power weapon really makes them shine in this role.

Pods, even empty ones, seem to me like a cheaper way to get beacons on the board. If you're using beacons to guide in reserves who deepstrike turn 2 or later (like vanguard vets), you throw out a couple of pods with locator beacons in turn 1. Same deal if you're gating around with a librarian. The pods are cheaper and more durable than a unit of scout bikers, and you can get more of them so if one gets blown up or scatters out, you still have others.

It doesn't help guide in pods in turn 1, but most of the time that's not a problem anyway.

yea, but where are you getting these empty drop pods? you can't buy dedicated transports without a unit... and any unit that takes a pod can't take a second transport, so would be stuck hoofing it. Not a great idea.

If you run a TFC you can get an empty pod.
If you run a Hellfire dread you can get an empty pod.
If you run a bike Command Squad you can get an empty pod.
If you run a Dev squad you can get an empty pod.
If you run gating Sternguard you can get an empty pod.

Though... I don't particularly like drop pods to begin with . In addition, I don't like Gating as well...or I'm just spoiled with having too many plasma cannons for my own good...

What about the scouts other ability, to booby trap terrain? Would it be useful to fill you fast attack slots in a biker army with scouts so that you can deny the enemy the ability to use up to three pieces of terrain? Deny is probably a strong word but at least make you opponent hesitate before throwing a squad into cover.

If you are using a biker army you could just choose the pieces of terrain farthest from your deployment since that's where most of the action will be taking place.

its worth 10 points, but no more than that. If you already have scout bikers, might as well take it, its not a bad thing to have. Otherwise, I wouldn't take the scouts just for the ability.

You don't 'deny' the opponent terrain with getting booby traps.
The mines are generally laughable, at least for me.

Basically you are doing the opponent a favor spending 30 points on those 3 boobytraps in addition to the points spent purchasing the scout bikers.

against most armies, the mines are worth it. my only question is... do they go off if your enemy deploys in the terrain you trap? or only if they move into it?

Sanctjud wrote:You don't 'deny' the opponent terrain with getting booby traps.
The mines are generally laughable, at least for me.

Basically you are doing the opponent a favor spending 30 points on those 3 boobytraps in addition to the points spent purchasing the scout bikers.

Like I said, deny is a strong word. I know as an IG player that I would hesitate to throw just about any squad into terrain if I was going to take 2d6 strength 4 hits. Admittedly it matters allot less if your playing MEQ since the chance that each hit would cause death is 1/6 instead of 4/9ths.

On average if the ability is used it'll take out 1 (1.167) MEQ which would more than pay for it's point cost, even if it didn't kill anything more important than a vanilla marine.

@Honersstodnt:
"Most Armies" being MEQ are not too bothered by the mines...hell most armies will be mech. So the only guys in cover would be say Devs, Tacs, Scouts.

And they need to move to activate them, so simply deploying on them and sitting still pretty much gets around it. Though if you cause them to fallback and 'make' them move, you'd trigger the mines.

@Thatguyoverthere:
It's not that simple, it's not just the cost of the mines, it's the scouts too. Not just that , a whole Fast Attack slot. That's pretty crippling if you ask me.

well, i'm already taking a squad of scout bikes in my armies anyway for fluffy reasons, so 10 points more for cluster mines wont' break me though if I need 10 points, its the first thing I cut.

3 bikes, combimelta, meltabombs. 85 points of pure chewing satisfaction.

One of my regular opponents uses a couple of these as suicide / disruption units, to great effect.

If the marine goes first, each squad should pop at least one tank (potentially more than one, if he can get the multicharge), as the grenades will autohit. 85 points for a LR / Russ / Hammerhead is a damned fine trade.

The opponent must either suck up the loss of a key vehicle (or two) or have his deployment dictated by a couple of 85 point units (by either bubblewrapping or staying in reserves).

If there aren't any juicy trades to make, the scouts can outflank in order to tank hunt or contest objectives later in the game.

Finally, spending only 85 points on the unit leaves plenty for everything else.

Wouldn't the Captain on bike rule make them troop choices if you were going for a crazy drop pod list? I'm guessing that most people wouldn't want to waste 135 points or so in one of the HQ slots if they weren't going to have a bike-heavy force, but i might work.

CatPeeler wrote:

If there aren't any juicy trades to make, the scouts can outflank in order to tank hunt or contest objectives later in the game.

Aha, but how will you know whether or not there are any juicy trades until after you have declared how the scouts are deploying? Since you're going first, you have to declare whether they are infiltrating or outflanking *before* your opponent puts anything on the board.

A smart opponent will just not deploy tanks if you're infiltrating, or deploy in the center (or block the edges) if you're outflanking.

Flavius Infernus wrote:Aha, but how will you know whether or not there are any juicy trades until after you have declared how the scouts are deploying? Since you're going first, you have to declare whether they are infiltrating or outflanking *before* your opponent puts anything on the board.

A smart opponent will just not deploy tanks if you're infiltrating, or deploy in the center (or block the edges) if you're outflanking.

That was my point, actually. If the marine goes first, the scouts infiltrate. If they go second, they can decide after their opponent has tipped his hand.

If the opponent decides to go all in reserve, the scouts have already done their job. 85 points in exchange for your opponent coming in piecemeal is a freakin' bargain.

Sanctjud wrote:Though... I don't particularly like drop pods to begin with .

Is this based on personal preference or do you not think that they're good?

Because I do rather well with them... Not to mention that they're loads of fun to use!

This has all got a bit mad! lol

I dont power-play or play tournaments much at all. Im fluffy and fun all the way, but I still fully understand all your great and juicy tactics.

Hence I say overall theyre definately worth the points considering an average tactical squad costs 180pts. Would be different if your a dark eldar player, and your 2 sniper darklance squads cost 100pts each and can take out all 3 vehicles on the board by turn 2, when your 5 scourges (3 splinter cannons, sybarite with pb &hg) cost 155pts and killed one sister of battle after their 12 s4 shots and died in turn 2. (That happened tonight!). Scout bikes seem thrice as hardy as scourges and they are much more versatile and useful.

I reckon I'll take 5; 3 agl, beacon, power weapon, melta bombs and mines at 195pts, and I reckon they would be of equivilent worth to me as my tactical squads which are both 195pts.

And at the end of the day its all just a bit of fun, lol.

But it is also life and death!

@Monster Rain:
I play a fast reserve list, I rape pod lists...
In addition, it a personal issue. Pods are nice, no doubt, but they take away some flexibility.

'MUST' pod in is a huge negative for me...there is no choice other than filled or unfilled pods. In most cases I rather not have them come in turn 1.
_________
@Catpeeler:
I don't know about your experience, but full reserves is dependant on many situations, generally not associated with the scout bikers.

In addition, all you need to do is bubble wrap and all you risk is at worst a locked squad or better yet some dead scouts.

If you have your own scouts/infiltrators, you have to roll of 50/50 to push them back alot.
________________

@Newt-of-Death:
Mad is good, mad with progress and exchanging of ideas. This can only be a good thing.

I have seen that comparison before.

The issue is, heavy flamer equivalents are NOW numerous... and I'm not talking about the foot versions, but the fast/deepstrik/show up out of no-where kind.

In addition, scoring is a huge factor and the deployment options of Tactical squads brings a hugely different set of uses.

At the end of the day it's easily seen as an apples vs. oranges issue.

Comparison to scourges.....who uses those any more? All I see is WWP army or mass skimmer armies...Scout Bikers don't offer too much against (IMO) a serious DE player (few and far between IMO).

As for equivalent worth, sure, whatever scale you use, make sure to let us know of their exploits
Though, remember, the power weapon is limited to 2 Attacks and 3 on the charge, you don't get a bonus attack for 2 combat weapons because he doesn't have a second.

As for the 'end of the day bit', even that depends on each person.
"At the end of the day the game doesn't care about fun or fluffy, it only cares about a winner and a loser, and hence..... play to win" At least that's the face value comment I would make about the game in general.

Sanctjud wrote:@Monster Rain:
I play a fast reserve list, I rape pod lists...
In addition, it a personal issue. Pods are nice, no doubt, but they take away some flexibility.

'MUST' pod in is a huge negative for me...there is no choice other than filled or unfilled pods. In most cases I rather not have them come in turn 1.

I think that's a little bit shortsighted...

A few units in Drop Pods are pretty nice here and there. Most armies I make over 1500 have 3 pods in them, 2(with Dreadnoughts) for first turn and one with a Tac Squad for late turn objective grabbing. I'd like to play your reserve list someday, because I don't think it's all as cut and dry as you would make it seem. Bring it to Game Castle sometime!

I completely agree that half of them coming in on first turn is a huge pain in the though.

I did say they are nice.
The surgical strike can be invaluable.

I play an all-biker list to a near-all biker list.

I need an army that can chill out in reserves fully and completely, pods do not do that for me.

Vs. Full Reserves, the pods have a hard choice, closer to act as a net or back and up the likelyhood of living with later commitment.

I come in either safe or have something death.
If I am that unfortunate to not have much come in, then I skirt the sides and bid my time.

This is my experience, pods/deepstrike heavy armies are not a huge problem for me.
I guess we play with pretty dense terrain sometimes or that the planets align for me, who knows.

As for the challenge, I'd love to have us both smack each other with power fists . Except I don't have transport (yet) so it'll have to wait til them .


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As shortsighted as it looks and sounds... I do not have the drive or energy to be holistic 24/7... it's the end of the day, please let me be a little lazy .

I stretch myself thin bewteen here, 40KO, Warseer, B&C...

Sanctjud wrote:
As for the challenge, I'd love to have us both smack each other with power fists . Except I don't have transport (yet) so it'll have to wait til them .


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As shortsighted as it looks and sounds... I do not have the drive or energy to be holistic 24/7... it's the end of the day, please let me be a little lazy .

I stretch myself thin bewteen here, 40KO, Warseer, B&C...

Heh. I'll be in Boston to watch the Sox on Memorial Day Weekend. Maybe I can bring my army and we can throw down in the city! Droofus would be super jealous.

And the "shortsighted" bit wasn't intended to come off as douchy. I apologize if it did. I was just trying to say that Pods can be effective, despite the shortcomings that you very accurately pointed out. Sometimes you don't get the perfect Alpha Strike, but you can set up a nice little area denial zone at key points with a few Dreadnoughts and Tactical Squads and make things rather difficult for an opponent that's all in reserve.

I see that there's a store on Commonwealth, which is pretty close to where I'd be staying... where do you play in Beantown?