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The almighty Emperor has once again got me really enthusiastic in the Sisters of Battle army I'm collecting. I've read the Sisters of Battle Mechanized Tactica and will for sure be using a Canoness with a jump pack, but the Celestian Retinue seems like an interesting tactic. Has anyone used it? Can it be a good tactic or is the Canoness always better off by herself?

welcome to the SOB fold!

The celestian retinue is a great unit but it plays very different role in the army then the flying nun.

Generally speaking the flying nun is used to take out tanks and other big scary things thatare far away. The retinue on the other hand has 2 real puposes, as well as providing other benefits.

1. Its a great tarpit/decent CC unit. With only 5 models (5 + cannoness) you have a relatively easy time time casting spirit of the martyr allowing them to tarpit other units, as well as providing cover to you cannoness who can still dish out the hurt when nessessary. Also hiting on 3+ most of the time isn't to bad.
2. Allows you to take an immolator for the unit. (this is a huge deal) Immolators are one of the top (argueably the best) transport in the game IMO. You have a twin linked heavy flamer that can be fired when moving at cruising speed AND a single fire point that can be using when moving short distances or camping objectives.

Never ever use a foot slogging celestian retinue its worthless.

That being said, both types of cannonesses have their places. It really depends on what kinda of army you want/how many point you are playing. Personally I like jump cannoness if Im' using excorcists and I like celestian cannoness if I'm using immolator based armies. Each are great in their own way.

Thanks a lot for the advice! Can I PM you an army list I have later to see what you think?

dumplingman wrote:Personally I like jump cannoness if Im' using excorcists and I like celestian cannoness if I'm using immolator based armies. Each are great in their own way.

I totally agree here. The only time I've ever run the celestian retinue has been with an Immolator spam list, and even then it was only to get the extra Immolators.

Personally i prefer to run two flying nuns with a smallish squad of seraphim; It's a tough unit to shoot off the board, has silly amounts of melta/eviscerators and can rapidly jump into your opponents back line to cause trouble.

Canonnes+Retinue+Immolator is pretty damned good in smaller games, or games where you don't expect a ton of tanks on the other side.

Be ye warned! If your Flying Nun joins a Seraphim squad, they loose Hit and Run - which is important. Especially since Seraphim have the good version of Hit and Run.

Huh, Immolators do have 1 fire point... always thought they didn't have any. Learn something new every day! Thanks!

Azezel wrote:
Be ye warned! If your Flying Nun joins a Seraphim squad, they loose Hit and Run - which is important. Especially since Seraphim have the good version of Hit and Run.

Wise words indeed

Just remember to split your Canonesses off before you get into combat and everything will be lovely. Joining them to a Seraphim squad prior to that is just a good way to abuse the free simulacrum imperialis you get from the Seraphim With an 18" threat range, you should always be threatening multiple units with your Seraphim squad anyways; besides, if the vet has an eviscerator, i think you'll find regular Seraphim to be pretty nasty on the charge anyhoo

edited: For lack of v's.

Well, I might be hijacking the direction of this thread, and I apologize if I am doing so, but I felt bringing this up here would be smarter than starting up a whole new thread.

I'm interested in the pros and cons of Seraphim v. Celestians with a corresponding Canoness to lead either group. I've heard some negative comments towards Seraphim with issues of expensiveness and targeting with TLOS, and I wasn't sure if they're as effective as they used to be. Also, how do you guys equip these two units?


I'm building up a small force of sisters as allies for my guard army, which is fairly mechanized, and I have a regular squad of sisters in a rhino already, so choosing between the seraphim and celestians is one thing I'm trying to work out

Personally i prefer the Seraphim, though they are very expensive. Used correctly they are game winners: Their ability to easily get an invulnerable save and then bounce out of combat (with no I test needed) on their next turn is great for getting to grips with your opponents backline. If you run a Canoness with them, just make sure to separate her from the unit before they assault or you'll lose the H&R ability :(

I usually take 7 Seraphim with 2 inferno pistols, a veteran, a book of St. Lucius and an Eviscerator. The accompanying Canoness take a jump pack, cloak of St. Aspira, Master crafted Inferno pistol, Eviscerator, Mantle of Ophelia, and a litanies of faith.

I wouldn't use this unit with an IG list though. Try using a Canoness with a blessed weapon, combi melta, book, and 5 celestians with 2 meltaguns mounted in an immolator. The Book (often referred to as the 'magic book of not running away') is really quite broken and will give anything within 6" an unmodifiable LD of 10

J. Black: The Canonnes cannot have a Blessed Weapon and a Combi-Melta, both are two-handed weapons.

Seraphim are cool, but they are also on the expensive side.

The customary unit size is eight - that, combined with their automatic Simulacrum Imperialis, gives them a good chance of pulling off any Act of Faith.

The Simulacrum is important - so long as you have a Veteran Sister Suprerior, you roll THREE dice for Acts of Faith and pick the two you like! If the Canonnes is with them, then yes, seven Seraphim, so the squad size is still eight.

Let's talk equipment. Two Seraphim should be equipped with special weapons - the same special weapons. You want 2x Dual Inferno Pistols or 2x Dual Hand Flamers - don't mix-and-match. An Eviscerator is an excellent choice for the Sister Superior. Personally, I don't give her a Book of St. Lucius, though. It only affects units within 6" and if the Seraphim are doing their job, they are jumping around so much there usually won't be a friendly unit that close. On the other hand, it's only five points, and is bloody good, so go with what suits.

Despite what it may look like, Seraphim aren't a cc unit. Acts of Faith help, but you have that good version of Hit and Run for a reason. Charge, put the hurt on but do not stick around for a second round of cc.

Eight Seraphim with rending TL bolt Pistols/Flamers have a fair chance of hurting most IC with shooting, and on the charge may well finish the job, but whatever happens, jump away at the end of the assault and shoot some more.


Celestians are better in close combat, and not just because they are cheaper... Their Holy Hatred is tasty, so long as you remember that it does not apply Vs IC and MC. Which is a pain. As has been said before - Celestians are also a spiffy way to get an Immolator on the table. Seize the oppertunity. It moves 12" and can still fire the TL Heavy Flamer. Speaking of which - give the Celestians a Heavy Flamer.

Celestians can take a Multimelta, but I can't fully recomend that they do. The should not really be standing still. It may just work for you if you really do need to get some melta goodness at the pointy end of your army.

I take 1 day off from work and I'm behind the loop now!

@Werkind, yes they do hav a fire point I just found out recently I was completely suprized.

@ Azezel, I still can't get behind seraphim to be hoenst. The big problem is of course the cost, that being said they do have their place. I think that if they are going an anti infantry route they should be large with a vet sister like you say, however if you are going the inferno pistol route I think min squads are better because in this role they are just tank hunters so you dont need the extra models. One thing I have been doing on occassion is having a drop seraphim squad with a combi melta and 2 inferno pistols. It has worked great, but it has also just died I don't know. I can't wait untill they get redone

I'll level with you - Seraphim were my first ever models, and I just plain like 'em. (Even if I don't use them every game.)

I also accidentally won a ton on ebay (I have seventeen, I bid low, impulsively, not thinking I'd win, and I did...) - so when I finally get them all painted you may bet I'll go to town!

No doubt they are over-priced, but a chap's got to follow his heart. Given my large force of them - I too am very keen to see what the new Codex will do.

Anyway - Accolade: If you didn't know, there is no Seraphim model with dual Inferno Pistols - you have to do it yourself. For my part, I don't think it's worth it. If you want to pop vehicles with your Seraphim, well, that's why the Emperor invented Eviscerators and Melta Bombs. (You can also find a Seraphim Superior w/ Plasma Pistol if you're a gambling man).

Dumplingman makes a sound point - tank-hunting can be acomplished by a five-woman squad (and frankly, I'd probably give them flamers even so). But it is risky, since a 5-strong squad is pretty much limited to 'Roll Over' Acts of Faith. That's why eight is considered the magic number.


All that said - I stand by what I said: Celestians are a spiffy way top get an Immolator on the table, and I really do recomend that you seize the oppertunity.

I have to admit, as much as I LOVE seraphim, I have not been using them in games <2000 points lately, in favor of a dominion squad in an immolator. I find both turn into fire magnets, but the immolator is a little more durable, and when it dies an eviscerator, more flamers and a melta pop out instead of just blood and a faith point.
At 2000 though, I find 6-7 seraphim with flamers and an eviscerator vet are a great time, allowing very accurate flamer template positioning, and as folks have said a very quick method of smacking something around, then zipping into the backfield for tank killing. However, it is still ~150 points for 6 T3 models. Invulnerable or no, it doesn't take a lot of fire to bring them low. I hope they go down to 15-16 points a pop with a free Vet in the manner of the new Marines codexes, especially since they will likely lose their fancy cheaty Hit and Run

considering I have about 40 seraphim lynig around (I used to have 20 thne won a big auction too!) lower poitn cost would be rad

Considering how far Assault Marines fell in price, I can't imagine Seraphim not doing the same.

I'm about to get FINALLY get the seraphim squad I've planned to buy for months. I can't wait! Especially after reading that mechanized battle sister tactica. I still need to order a second box of 10 sisters though....

Celestians in immo awesome
Celestions as Retinue in immo or rhino, also awesome

Seraphim, garbage. Not game winners, garbage. If they're winning games for you, your opponent isnt very good, or you got lucky.

CC troops with Str3 T3...yea right. Cite benefits of faith and tankbusting all you want, they suck. Other units in the army use faith, you can get tankbusting elsewhere.

Seraphim are NOT good. Leave them at home!


EDIT: BTW....

I know how much you "Seraphim Lovers" love your precious little flying girlz, before you tell me that I dont know what I'm talking about...check out number six on this list...


http://www.adepticon.org/?page_id=494

Yea, Seraphim stink....HARD. Dont use them.

I saw your rank and I'm glad you were able to do so well with my favourite army. How do you use the Sisterhood?

I've been doing drive-by sisters, immolator based since before it was cool. (started building when the 'dex first came out) Right now I'm working a Footslogging list (with lesser success, but its fun to play with)

Everything mounted, IST squads in rhino's with dual melta for troops (and typically one 10 girl sister unit as well) lots of celestians in immo's, dominions in immo's as well rather than using Seraphim in fast attack.

Mixing in Seraphim in a drive by list simply doesnt work, it weakens your mech. Plus, honestly you just dont need them with the other tools you have in the codex. There is ZERO reason to try and fit an expensive Seraphim unit into a drive-by list. (and drive-by lists are what the sisters do best)

People will tell you that its a shooting unit that can pop vehicles.
-your army can do that better and safer from WITHIN transports.

People will also tell you that they're great for HtH
-which is a lie, they're terrible hth combatants that give the illusion of competence due to FAITH and sometimes an accompanying Cannonness with JP. Faith is something most of your girls will have anyway...Seraphim arent any better than any other unit in the army for HtH, and are WEAKER than celestians IMHO. Heck, right now I'm running basic sisters on foot with a Cannoness and Priest that will smash the snot out of any equal pointed Seraphim unit with attached Canoness...EVERY TIME.

People will also cite the awesomeness of Hit and run
-why bother? Stay in transports and you dont have to worry about getting out of combat.

Like I said, I've played the Witchhunters codex since the book came out. I've NEVER seen a good use for Seraphim that Celestians, Dominions or basic sisters cannot do just as well if not better for the points. You dont need them, and they are too expensive for what they're capable of.

@Deadshane,

Well like I Said I'm not a fan of seraphim in this edition, but I still try to find uses for them for freindly play. However, I find it hard to believe you didn't like them in 4th edition, they were just fantstic since pistols fired twice.

Meh, big deal that.

Jumppackers standing still to fire twin linked bolters...excuse my sarcasm please but "YIPPEE!"

Thats not amazing shooting, tell you what IS amazing shooting in 4e though, taking a NON-fast vehicle, firing its twin-linked heavy flamer after moving 12" (sometimes after tank shocking the target to bunch them up) then popping the top hatch and firing another heavy flamer.

Oh yea....times that times 4-6 times in an 1850 army. Seraphim dont hold a candle to THAT sort of performance.

Deadshane1 wrote:CC troops with Str3 T3...yea right.

Azezel wrote:

Despite what it may look like, Seraphim aren't a cc unit.

No-one in this thread is pretending that Seraphim are great. And no-one's pretending that they are close combat troops. The OP, and others, just asked how Celestians and Seraphim work, and we answered.

Seraphim are over-costed, and highly situational - and yes, I don't use them that often, but they aren't garbage - they aren't Arco-Flagelants for Emperor's sake.

The best way I can put it is this: You're building a footslogging list - it's not exactly brilliant, but you're having fun.

I feel the same way 'bout my Seraphim.

We're both having fun, everybody wins.

EDIT - Congratulations on your tourny place, good show.

different strokes for different folks I guess

I have to agree that Seraphim aren't all that. But... I converted up two really cool looking squads of them in 3rd edition and can't leave them out of my lists. (Swooping Hawk wings on SoB jump packs.)

Their niche in my army is finishing weakened units, using H&R to slingshot to awkward places and presenting 'threat'.

They also have the side effect of making my Sisters Ld10 within 6", which is somewhat helpful.

I run 8 with Vet, Evis and Book. Way too expensive, but meh. (230).

And, don't laugh, but I'm bringing that squad to 'Ard Boyz. Sometimes style wins out over substance (and efficacy) for me.

I'm a complete n00b at this game, but I think they'd be good to use to finish weakend squads or as a sort of suicide unit to keep targets of my close-ranged battle sister squads from being able to assualt them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm a complete n00b at this game, but I think they'd be good to use to finish weakend squads or as a sort of suicide unit to keep targets of my close-ranged battle sister squads from being able to assualt them. Btw, does anyone who uses seraphim have advice on how to use their H&R ability?

You're about right on their use. Weakened squads and tieing up units are what they are perfect for.

Best use of Hit & Run is to assault something on your turn , tieing it up for their turn so it can't do anything and then hit and run towards a juicier target at the end of their assault phase.

With the Invuln Act of Faith and Book of Stubborn, you're almost guaranteed to make it out of the assault against almost anything and then have slingshotted into their back lines.

Sweet. Thanks for the pointers.