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Magnus the traitor vs Vladimir the dark prince 30 points battle

magnus
- mangler
- renegade
- renegade
- Talon
Croes cutthroats (min)
Kell bailoch
Eiryss

Vladimir
- juggernaut
- Beast09
Man'o'war kovnik
- destroyer
Man'o'war shocktroopers (min)
(This actually adds up to 31, but I did not care...)

My list really was not cut out to take on a list like the one my opponent had. I needed to be very carefull about what to move where and especially when to engage.
His list was not optimised in any way, but it had armour, lot's and lot's of armour.

Deployment was pretty simple, I deployed first and had the jacks and magnus stand in my center. (renegade, mangler, talon, renegade) Croes was AD on the left of the field and eiryss and kell on the right.
He deployed vlad, his jacks and shocktroopers slightly more to the left. kovnik and the destroyer where deployed facing of against Kell and eiryss (ohoh...)

I started my turn and gave a focus to each renegade. Then Magnus activated and walked a bit right to get kell in range for a casting of snipe. The Talon got temper metal not it. Kell moved up a bit to get some protection between him and the destroyer and Eiryss made a daring move into the field. The renegade on the right took up shelter behind a rock on the right. The Talon, the mangler and the left renegade advanced a little bit. Croes stayed put (small mistake, but it did not matter...)
He started by gving a focus to the juggernaut. The jugger and behemoth ran ahead. he then advanced his shocktroopers. Vlad went after them and stood between them. he casts Windwall and boundless charge on the Juggernaut. He wants to get me next turn already... He then advances his Destroyer and takes a shot at eiryss wich scatters 4 inch off, doing nothing. kovnik takes up a position just behind the destroyer

My turn 2 starts with me upkeeping snipe on kell and keeping all my other focus. I start with Kell shooting at the destryer standing 17 inches away. he takes both shots and pings him for 1 damagae each, taking out the first 2 boxes in column 2. Eiryss retreats a bit and from 10 inch away shoots a deathbolt at the destroyer. she takes out 3 more boxes in column 2. only column 1 left to destry and take away half his reason to be... I then advance magnus and cast iron agression on the mangler. This makes him very focus efficient and is a must for a jack like that. Magnus also casts blur on himself, though it is not needed. The mangler, talon and left renegade stay out of the 13 inch chargerange (barely) by moving back a bit. I am hoping he charges and misses, thus letting me destroy his jacks... Croes run further left and take up position.
His second turn he gives away no focus. He just advances a bit and casts windwall for himself and the (now shieldwalled) men'o'war and boundless charge on the jugger again. he does however leave an opening for me to exploit he then advances the destroyer to just outside of 5 inch of eiryss and misses her scattering of 2 inch, missing her with the blast. kovnik again moves up behind the destroyer.

Turn 3 sees me retreating a bit more. I am on the edge of my side of the board again, very close to his chargerange. this is a dangerous dance that can go wrong fast. I keep the focus on magnus and cast a obliteration through a renegade just in front of magnus. I just miss the juggernout (only half an inch). I then retreat just past it's chargerange under feat of vlad and bondless charge (sick range btw...) Croes retreat a bit too and take up positionss on the hill on my left. the right renegade walks back in the direction of magnus. Kell and Eiryss repeat the trick of last round with column 1 and take out it's bombard. That thing is now a lot less dangerous. I have repositioned so I am not in chargerange of the destroyer with kell or eiryss.
My opponent starts by keeping all his focus again. he does not want to risk blowing the charge and just advances again with windwall and a boundless charge on beast. Kovnik and the destroyer run towards kell to take revenge.

My turn sees me giving 3 focus to the mangler, 1 to the Talon and 1 to the right renegade. I upkeep everything except snipe (everything is close now). I then go for the throat with the mangler and the Talon. The alon charges the jugger doing a bit of damage and stalling it. The mangler charges and threshers. it get's a Man'o'War and beast in ranges of it's weapon. He swings and hits both (her I first discovered the joys of Iron Agression ) Beast takes 6 damage. the man'o'war takes 2 (I forgot that I ignored shieldwall...) I then buy another attack with the ball and hit beast again. Boost damage and he is down another 7 damage. extra attack and another 6 is blown off, taking out it's movement. That thing will not harm me as much now... The Renegade on the right moves a bit left and lines up a shot at the kovnik. he boosts to hit (important roll) and kills the kovnik in 1 shot, knocking down the destroyer and making it shut down. I then take a shot at the juggernaut with eiryss wo manages to shoot a deathbolt into it's boiler doing 3 damage to column 5. Kell also shoot the jugger taking of another 2 boxes in column 5. Croes do nothing except stand around being pretty. Magnus moves forward a bit and then feats. the mangler and the talon run back to magnus and the renegade on the right also runs towars magnus. After surveying the battlefield I am pleased by seeing the 2 jacks who can't do a thing and the stalled jugger.
His turn the jugger stays stalled. Focus stays on vlad as giving it away would be pointless, as would feating). the jugger shuffles forward 1 inch. The jugger moves a bit towards me and vlad and the shocktroopers also advance a bit. Vlad casts blood of kings and windwall.

My turn sees me loading up the mangler again and giving 1 focus to the Talon and 2 to the Right renegade. The Talon charges the leftmost men'o'war, but only does 2 points of damage. Eyriss and kell doubleteam at the jugger again. they take out it's axe. The mangler charges the men'o'war and threshers. he get's 2 men'o'war, the jugger and vlad. He just misses vlad (annoying blood of kings) and takes out the 2 men'o'war. the jugger loses some boxes. I then put the punching spike through the jugger taking of another 5 boxes. 1 focus is used to get an extra attack on Vlad. it hits and after a boosted damage roll I do 12 damage to him. The last focus buys another attack, but that misses. (Vlad is a good dancer ) The right renegade charges the jugger and takes off all but 4 boxes. The left talon takes up position just in front of Magnus to block a charge from Vlad and Magnus moves back a bit. Croes do nothing yet again.
Vlad is furious about not getting a finger on the opponents and charges full of fury towards the renegade in front of Magnus. He casts blood of king and proceeds to give it 7 damage. he swings again and the renegade suffers another 5 damage. the last extra attack misses. (double 1 always misses ) The last men'o'war hit's the talon and does 1 damage. beast hits the talon (after moving another inch) and gives it another 5 damage. (Not being able to boost damage and me having temper metal on it made me more able to survive the attacks without losing systems. not that it mattered now. Khador has done it's first hits on turn 5, too little too late...

My turn 5 Magnus keeps all focus and just charges Vlad. First attack is with the fist and after a boost to hit Vlad is knocked down and takes 8 damage killing him...

In Hindsight my army is better capable of taking on this kind of army then I thought. The lack of armourbusting was compensated by the doubleteam of eiryss and Kell, taking of 5 damage a round to a column of choiche. This wil take out a column per round. Second important note is the fact that I could charge and then get the hell out of dodge. He could not retaliate on me and that cost him dearly the round after. The third thing I learned was that IronAgression makes all the difference on a mangler. It makes it very focus efficient by letting it run, charge, trample or slam for free. On top of that it also get's boosted to hits for free. This makes it a real beast. the second charge it was as if it had 8 Focus. You can't beat that...
Final thing I learned was that against this type of army Croes are useless. They could not get a descent shot in and that made them useless and just left them standing staring at the armour. Next time hopefully they perform better or they might get swapped... I have my eye on the riflemen at the moment. Croes are more flexible (except for the CRA) but the min rifleman is just a bit cheaper, allowing for some more models. Might just take the min rifleman anyway and get the army up to 35 points...

Hope you enjoyed the read. it was a bit longer then expected

he casts Windwall and boundless charge on the Juggernaut.

Why was he casting boudless charge when he wasn't charging? It's not an upkeep and gives no benefits if the model isn't charging.

he then advances the destroyer to just outside of 5 inch of eiryss and misses her scattering of 2 inch, missing her with the blast

2" scatter doesn't miss. 3" blast has a 1.5" radius meaning with a 2 inch scatter it will only be .5" from the intended target and WM small bases are larger than 1" meaning that if the template was centered (which it should've been) a 2" scatter wouldn't miss.

Why was he casting boudless charge when he wasn't charging? It's not an upkeep and gives no benefits if the model isn't charging.

he thought it was a good idea. besides it is next activation charge for free isn't it?? That is what he told me at least. It is also can charge, not must charge in next activation. we decided it would be ruled as not gone on his next turn, but after activating the Jack...

2" scatter doesn't miss. 3" blast has a 1.5" radius meaning with a 2 inch scatter it will only be .5" from the intended target and WM small bases are larger than 1" meaning that if the template was centered (which it should've been) a 2" scatter wouldn't miss.

We thought base is 1 inch and the blast is 3 inch. you put the blast on the center and go from there. if you throw a 1 the blast still covers half an inch of the base (3 inch / 2 = 1,5 inch, scatter 1 inch off is still knicking the model.) if you roll a 2 and everything is done fair then the model is not under the blast. margin of 0 error btw...
we should have checked basesize then... ah well, to late to cry over spilled milk...

The end result of the battle would be the same...

Boudless charge lasts for a turn, so none of the benefits carry over. Unless you're charging the turn you cast it it literally does nothing.

It also gives pathfinder and +2 move so it's a net gain on how far the Juggy or Beast 09 can move. Since neither have a ranged weapon, it can declare a charge every turn and fail and he's trucking along at 9" a turn without his feat.

True, but keeping the jacks under windwall is a higher priority and positioning so that the jacks will end their charge movement in the somewhat tiny bubble can be tricky. It's a cool maneuver if you can pull it off, but otherwise losing 1" of movement generally won't cost you the game.

On a note related to the game itself, it seems like the Vlad player was too timid. I'm curious what you would've done if he had, for example, popped Vlads feat 2nd or 3rd turn and ran all 3 jacks 16" forward to engage your army? It doesn't look like your army has the resources to deal with that much ARM20 engaged in melee especially with the dark prince himself coming in the turn after. It seems like if you're using Khador in general, but especially Vlad, knowing when you can take the hit and just say "I'm in your face and have alot of armor" as opposed to trying to get charges is important.

Gotten scared and probably tried to take down the jacks a bit then run of with my feat. That way I would have had a descent chance again at taking out the jacks. plus 1 would probably be stalled and would not be able to run a second time...

btw he did not have his jacks in the no shooting bubble. He left them out as he was not worried about 1 pow 16 shot and some pinpricks. I think he was right about doing it this way, as this also kept his jacks away from vlad a bit (the where 5 or 6 inch away from him) and I could not reliably use them to get a knockdown on vlad.



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Gotten scared and probably tried to take down the jacks a bit then run of with my feat. That way I would have had a descent chance again at taking out the jacks. plus 1 would probably be stalled and would not be able to run a second time...

btw he did not have his jacks in the no shooting bubble. He left them out as he was not worried about 1 pow 16 shot and some pinpricks. I think he was right about doing it this way, as this also kept his jacks away from vlad a bit (the where 5 or 6 inch away from him) and I could not reliably use them to get a knockdown on vlad.

I may have missed part of his feat as I've only played against pMagnus once, but I don't recall the move ignoring free strikes. If that's the case then you probably won't be running from Beast or the Jugger as long as the axes are operational or you risk suffering a critical freeze on top of a free boosted damage roll.

He really should've just packed all 3 in the Windwall bubble. Even if you fire a rocket and get low enough deviation to knock Vald down, the subsequent rocket will still auto miss from windwall, so the best you can do is some POW8s which Vlad and his jacks really aren't going to care about. On top of that it makes Eiryss basically useless and probably Kell as well though I can't recall for the moment if his weapon is magical.

Even the Destroyer with 3 focus could manhandle any of the jacks on your list (although it looks like he marshalled it, as to why I couldn't tell you). In this situation it just seems like his best response is to blitz with Vlad casting WW and jacks and MoW running every turn and around turn 2 feat and run all of his jacks to engage your army while Vlad throws up BoK to keep nuisance attacks off.

it does allow to run out of combat without taking freestrikes.

Furthermore marshalling the jacks makes it possible for vlad to have the focus to run the jacks. Vlad is still only a focus 7 caster and 3 jacks and casting spells takes a lot of focus. Plus the destroyer can work very well with a jackmarshal, as you only need 1 boost to hit or a boost to damage, most of the time not both...

In all honesty I think you have a very strange idea with how Vlad should run, as IMHO he is a selfisch caster with a feat that does not benefit his playstyle. His feat supports the jacks he otherwise has no support for. That is why running 3 jacks on him will make a bad combo IMHO. He can let them all run and do a windwall, but on the chargeturn the jacks need to decimate everything with only 7 focus. That is not happening all to often. Vlad then can't do a blood of kings and does not have a lot of focus. This makes him very vulnerable to being engaged and even killed that turn. If he is able to cast blood of kings the jacks have 4 less focus and chances of decimating are even slimmer.

it might be that I have a wrong view of Vlad, but in all honesty a jackCaster he is not...

Late game, I agree. Early/mid game, I've always seen pVlad as a great 'jack caster but when you are standing behind a wall of shield walled MoWST's you don't really need windwall up. I see Vlad as a turn 3 or turn 4 charge following up on the feat charge the prior turn. The armor is enough that if you don't kill what you hit, it will cripple it to the point of not really being able to respond. This in turn opens up holes for Vlad and the boys to get into and exploit. I see him as someone who goes from support caster to "we're all gonna die!" depending on the flow of the game.

The other thing about pVlad is if you really need Windwall up, go charge a widowmaker or a doomie who's not doing anything or in the way. Same could go for razorwind as well.

The problem with a MoW shieldwall in a pVlad list is that you kind of kill his feat. The extra armor is nice, but they just move too slow and having a unit of slow medium-based models in front of your murder machines means you probably need a turn of setup to get off the charges and even if you don't the leisurely stroll up the battlefield will result in unnecessary losses. They just don't mesh well in an army that already has a healthy immunity to ranged attacks for its primary melee units. On the other hand, I'm a huge of these guys with Irusk and Butcher.

As far as Vlad as a Jack caster, Berzerkers are your friend. They charge without spending focus, still hit pretty hard and can make for a nice anti-infantry bomb when needed all for a pretty low price tag. Jack Marshalling is usually a mistake, but more so with Khador than with any other faction. Their ranged jacks still hit like a truck in melee if you have the option to give them focus, so losing that flexibility to effectively save your caster a point of focus a turn usually isn't a good trade off. But with all of this, the jacks are basically just the high ARM distraction to keep your from being able to deal with Vlad as he saunters up with BoK.

Mastershake wrote:Jack Marshalling is usually a mistake, but more so with Khador than with any other faction.

The Dude and his two buddies, the Defender and the Cyclone would like to disagree.

I've never run a Destroyer in any of my lists. I run mainly pVlad and pButcher and I don't have the points or the focus to waste on making the Destroyer useful. Marshalling off to a Kovnik + Koldun Lord I think would be viable in 50 points but at 35 it's too much of an investment. It also takes away from points for IFP's, Manhunters, and Doomies.

Well, this Report has gone the way of list building

I am still of mind that Vlad does not need 3 heavy jacks attached to it. I am also of mind that marshalling one out to the kovnik is not a big misstake. Even marshalled it still has the ability to cripple the opponent, especially if the kovnik uses it's drive.

Further more I think that Vlad is indeed fast, but without the support he needs he will be in more trouble then he can handle. He might be knocked down and assasinated, he might become tarpitted etc...

Also not windwalling against an army with 2 renegades and croes would be a big misstake. They will ping you to death. It does depend a bit on how the dice roll, but without windwall it will be sure to happen sometime.

as to the last comment of 12thRonin, well if he does not have IFP then he will not take away points to field them. the manhunters and doomies he feels are not what goes well with Vlad. I will talk to him and see if he want to give it a try. The doom reavers and Fenris will then probably rteplace the destroyer and the kovnik, or the jugger and kovnik...

I like the manhunters and doomies with pVlad simply because they operate just fine by themselves while he's doing jack torpedoes or doing the work himself.

Personally I pretty much start any Khador list I play with min IFP + UA, 1 unit of reavers, 2 manhunters, and Yuri the Axe. I add in jacks and support from there. Granted, pButch does far more for that setup but Vlad doesn't have to do much to help them.

well, IMHO if you start a list and you have 20 points spend already then you do not make a new list. you take a old one and use some new stuff...

I will battle him again tomorrow and see if he wants to use vlad with a alternative list. I will let you guys now the results...