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Hi folks,

yesterday I had a discussion about the Venomthrope's Spore Cloud special rule as it is mentioned on page 45 of the Tyranid Codex. It grants every "friendly unit" within 6" a 5+ "cover save".

I believe that at least 50 % of the unit that intends to claim the cover save must be within 6" of the Venomthrope. One model within this range doesn't to effect the whole unit. The reason is as simple as astonishing.

It says: "[...] any friendly unit [...]" A unit is a squad as it is pointed out on page 3 in the Warhammer Rulebook. Ergo, as a basic principle the whole unit must be within a 6" range to be effected by the Spore Cloud. Nonethelesse the Warhammer Rulebook emphasizes on page 22 that it is sufficient if 50 % of the unit is in cover. In this case the whole unit benefits from the "cover save".

It is not acceptable if page 3 in the Warhammer Rulebook is quoted, where it says that for measuring the distance between two units only the closest model counts. This rule only refers to measuring the distance between a friendly and an "enemy unit", see there. The Spore Cloud special rule on the contrary says "friendly unit". Measuring distance between two friendly units cannot claim the measuring distances rule on page 3 in the Warhammer Rulebook.

Actually, who says that 1 model is enough for a tyranid unit to be within synapse range? The Tyranid Codex doesn't make a statement so far. The measuring distances rule is not applicable...

What do you say?

Any comments welcome.

Wixxer

You are unfortunately wrong.

When measuring to see if a unit is in range you sximply measure to the closest model. If the closest model is within 6", then, by definition, the whole unit "counts as" being within 6".

In short: 1 gaunt in range means the whole lot get a save.

also 1 gaunt in range and you have to roll for dangerous terrain even if you are assaulting a tendril 20" away from the venomthrope.

another one of the things in the bug codex that should have been tweaked before release.

nosferatu1001 wrote:You are unfortunately wrong.

When measuring to see if a unit is in range you sximply measure to the closest model. If the closest model is within 6", then, by definition, the whole unit "counts as" being within 6".

In short: 1 gaunt in range means the whole lot get a save.

100% agree with Nos. When measuring to units you only have to measure to a single model. It is kind of like shooting. The entire squad does not have to be in range to shoot them.

Nos is Correct as ever

Well, you don't prove your assumptions. The rule says that the whole unit must be within 6 inches... not just one model. Where do you get this rule from? Page 3 in the BRB refers only to enemy models... the cover save demands at least half of the unit to be in cover i.e. to be in the cloud.

wixxer wrote:Well, you don't prove your assumptions. The rule says that the whole unit must be within 6 inches... not just one model. Where do you get this rule from? Page 3 in the BRB refers only to enemy models... the cover save demands at least half of the unit to be in cover i.e. to be in the cloud.

The rule says nothing of the sort, it says the unit has to be within 6". As per page 3 of the BRB, a unit with a single model within 6" is counted as being Within 6".

Question: Why bother coming here and asking if you are just going to flat out ignore the people who answer you?

wixxer wrote:Well, you don't prove your assumptions. The rule says that the whole unit must be within 6 inches... not just one model. Where do you get this rule from? Page 3 in the BRB refers only to enemy models... the cover save demands at least half of the unit to be in cover i.e. to be in the cloud.

Wixxer, I believe you misunderstand the rules on page 3 of the BRB under measuring distances. If you noticed, the only time enemy unit/model is mentioned is in an Example. That does not imply that the rule is not used when measuring distances between 2 friendly units, which it is.

Excuse me, Sir...

I did not intend to appear unthankful. When I posted my initial question I tried to make clear why I believe that at least 50 % off the unit must be covered by the spore cloud. I quoted the BRB and the codex. Regrettably you responded with mere assumptions that you are convinced to be correct. I just asked for some evidence. Page 3 of th BRB refers to measuring distances between friendly and enemy units... That is not the case when we are talking about the Venomthrope's special rule. If the cloud was a building you also would require at least 50 percent to be inn the building rather than just one model. We are taking about a cover save not an invulnerable save... Again... Many apologies and much embarassment if I sounded nasty...

+ hides +

Page 3 talks about measuring distances to ALL units, it just uses To the Enemy as an example.

And yes, IF the Cloud was a building, it would need 50%. However, the cloud is NOT a building, or terrain, or a banana. It is a special rule that gives a 5+ cover save to UNITS within 6", thus if even a single model is within 6", the entire UNIT gets the save.

Disclosure: I have a small Tyranid army and it contains a Venomthrope.

At the risk of seeming biased I agree with Gwar and Nosferatu101.

This exact issue was discussed a few days ago.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/291264.page

To put this in some kind of perspective, when you want to shoot at an enemy unit, is it in range if a single model of it is in range?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I will add, I think it is a weird effect however I doubt it is game unbalancing.

Hi Hamster,

GW was forced to clarify that a unit is in synapse range when just one model of the unit is. If out was as obvious as your answer suggests there would not have been any motivation to clarify this rule. How do the Orc players act with their force field?

wixxer wrote:Hi Hamster,

GW was forced to clarify that a unit is in synapse range when just one model of the unit is. If out was as obvious as your answer suggests there would not have been any motivation to clarify this rule. How do the Orc players act with their force field?

Hello wixxer,

Every army plays pretty consistantly with their special rules. The ork KFF gives all units with a model within 6" its special rules for coversaves including obscurment for vehicles. The Space Wolf psychic power and the BA psychic power work the same as well. It's assumed that if a single model is within the 6" then the unit receives the benefits.

wixxer wrote:Hi Hamster,

GW was forced to clarify that a unit is in synapse range when just one model of the unit is. If out was as obvious as your answer suggests there would not have been any motivation to clarify this rule. How do the Orc players act with their force field?

GW Clarified It, even though it is clear, but it is something a lot of people misunderstand.

And the KFF works exactly the same way as the Venomthrope. If a single model is within 6", the WHOLE UNIT gets the save.

Under measuring distances page 3

"When measuring distances between two units, use the closest models as your reference points."

The "example" after this uses an enemy model however the rule is not solely for measuring to enemy units. I think thsi pretty clearly shows if a single model is in range, the unit is as well.

My apologies if quoting rules is a no no.

The current main rulebook addresses this very clearly on page 3. The unit is within 6" of the venomthrope if one model is in that radius. The unit is not 'in cover', they are granted a save because the unit is in range to recieve this bonus.

Similarly with Orks, I can put one grot within 6" of a Kustom Forcefield, and the other 29 spread out across 90" with max coherency... and they all get a 5+ cover save.

This does not mean that enemies need to roll for difficult terrain when charging the unit, however. No terrain is involved in the base of this discussion.

Terrain can also grant a cover save (if 50% of the unit occupies terrain), and this is where I think you are getting confused.

Oki guys...

I give up... I read the recent FAQ published by GW for the Orcs. It says that it is enough if just one model is in range as far as the KFF is concerned. The same interpretation should apply for the insects...

Thx especially to Hamster an Arctik...

Talk to you soon

Wixxer

...because of the rules on page 3 which states that this is all that is needed for a unit to be in range.

Arctik_Firangi wrote:The current main rulebook addresses this very clearly on page 3. The unit is within 6" of the venomthrope if one model is in that radius. The unit is not 'in cover', they are granted a save because the unit is in range to recieve this bonus.

Similarly with Orks, I can put one grot within 6" of a Kustom Forcefield, and the other 29 spread out across 90" with max coherency... and they all get a 5+ cover save.

This does not mean that enemies need to roll for difficult terrain when charging the unit, however. No terrain is involved in the base of this discussion.

Terrain can also grant a cover save (if 50% of the unit occupies terrain), and this is where I think you are getting confused.

Please note that any non-vehicle unit assaulting any friendly (Tyranid) unit within range of the Venomthrope must take a dangerous terrain test.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Arctik_Firangi wrote:The current main rulebook addresses this very clearly on page 3. The unit is within 6" of the venomthrope if one model is in that radius. The unit is not 'in cover', they are granted a save because the unit is in range to recieve this bonus.

Similarly with Orks, I can put one grot within 6" of a Kustom Forcefield, and the other 29 spread out across 90" with max coherency... and they all get a 5+ cover save.

This does not mean that enemies need to roll for difficult terrain when charging the unit, however. No terrain is involved in the base of this discussion.

Terrain can also grant a cover save (if 50% of the unit occupies terrain), and this is where I think you are getting confused.

Please note that any non-vehicle unit assaulting any friendly (Tyranid) unit within range of the Venomthrope must take a dangerous terrain test.

But not a difficult terrain test. Dangerous terrain does not preclude -also- difficult in the rulebook.

One more stupid question... If I shoot those units with an ordnance blast weapon like a demolisher canon... do those units get a cover save?

wixxer wrote:One more stupid question... If I shoot those units with an ordnance blast weapon like a demolisher canon... do those units get a cover save?

Yes, because they have a special rule granting them one. Otherwise, cover would be taken as if the shot had come from the center of the blast marker. It doesn't apply to Venomthropes or KFF because the save is granted to them rather than conferred by actual cover.

Woah, too too complex a discussion this time of the night for me to sink my teeth into..

A simple This or That will suffice.

DOES the squad have to have 50% of its models within 6" of the Venomthrope to grant cover save,

OR

only ONE model has to be within the 6"?

Ethancol wrote:Woah, too too complex a discussion this time of the night for me to sink my teeth into..

A simple This or That will suffice.

DOES the squad have to have 50% of its models within 6" of the Venomthrope to grant cover save,

OR

only ONE model has to be within the 6"?

One Model

puma713 wrote:

wixxer wrote:One more stupid question... If I shoot those units with an ordnance blast weapon like a demolisher canon... do those units get a cover save?

Yes, because they have a special rule granting them one. Otherwise, cover would be taken as if the shot had come from the center of the blast marker. It doesn't apply to Venomthropes or KFF because the save is granted to them rather than conferred by actual cover.

You're getting ordnance confused with barrage weapons, puma. In all cases you will get a cover save from the ordnance weapon if eligible, using TLOS as normal. Barrage weapons ignore intervening units and terrain, and work as you described.

Units with the venomthrope's bonus will always get a cover save from these weapons, unless it also 'ignores cover', like that IG Leman Russ variant or the SM Whirlwind incendiary ammo or whatever it is... I forget. It's S4/AP5/Barrage/Ignores Cover

In his defense the Demolisher entry has been errata'ed so that it is a direct fire weapon, it is incorrectly listed as Barrage for one entry in the codex.

Arctik_Firangi wrote:

puma713 wrote:

wixxer wrote:One more stupid question... If I shoot those units with an ordnance blast weapon like a demolisher canon... do those units get a cover save?

Yes, because they have a special rule granting them one. Otherwise, cover would be taken as if the shot had come from the center of the blast marker. It doesn't apply to Venomthropes or KFF because the save is granted to them rather than conferred by actual cover.

You're getting ordnance confused with barrage weapons, puma. In all cases you will get a cover save from the ordnance weapon if eligible, using TLOS as normal. Barrage weapons ignore intervening units and terrain, and work as you described.

Units with the venomthrope's bonus will always get a cover save from these weapons, unless it also 'ignores cover', like that IG Leman Russ variant or the SM Whirlwind incendiary ammo or whatever it is... I forget. It's S4/AP5/Barrage/Ignores Cover

Gotcha. I rarely use Barrage or Ordnance, being an Eldar, Daemons and Nids player.

Cheers mate

i think the real question should be is where does it say obscure for MCs?

It doesn't need to say obscured. MCs are a unit, that can be placed within 6" of the venomthrope. By its special rule, they will get a 5+ cover save for being a friendly unit within 6" of the venomthrope. Why would you interpret it any differently?