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Wondering what people's thoughts on what the best all-biker armies are.

Rules:
All models have to be on bikes or jetbikes, or models that can be easily converted to resemble bikes, with similar movement capabilities. (This includes land speeders, warbuggies/tracks, and vypers, but not falcons or stormravens (do not look like bikes, even though they move similarly.)

Out due to not having viable troop choices:
Chaos Marines, (which, has some cool biker setups with various icons, but no biker troops), Chaos Daemons, Tau, Tyranids, Inquisition, Necrons, Guard, Dark Eldar, Wolves, Blood Angels, Templars.



In the running:

Orks:

Options:
HQ: Warboss on Bike, Wazzdakka
Elites: Nobs on bikes
Troops: Either warbikers or Nob bikers, depending on HQ choices
Fast Attack: Bikers, Deffkoptas, Buggies

Pros:
Can potentially use more force org slots with inclusion of nob bikers, if needed in huge games
Very biker-looking bikes
Nob bikers arguably both the hardest-hitting and most survivable unit in consideration

Cons:
Morale issues for expensive models
Limited alternate deployment options (only koptas have outflanking potential)
No real way to get ranged anti-tank into bike units - dependent on support (buggies, koptas) for rokkits.


Dark Angels

Options:
HQ: Master of Ravenwing (Required), Chaplain, Librarian
Troops: Ravenwing Attack Squads (One upgraded Ravenwing Command Squad)
Fast Attack: Ravenwing Attack Squads, Ravenwing Support Squads

Pros:
Can do a predominantly outflanking force
Squads can pack anti-tank as well as anti-infantry weapons

Cons:
Seem to lack punch compared to other entrants.

Space Marines

Options:
HQ: Khan or Captain on Bike (Required), Librarian, Chaplain, Master of Forge, Biker Command Squad
Troops: Space Marine Bike Squads
Fast Attack: Scout bikers, land speeders, Attack Bikers, Marine Bikes

Pros:
Can do the all-outflanking thing
Command squad has CC potential, esp. with 2 characters
Squads can pack anti-tank as well as anti-infantry weapons

Cons:
Typical marine issue: does it all okay, but doesn't excel at either shooting or combat


Eldar

Options:
HQ: Autarch on Bike, Farseer on Bike, Warlocks on Bikes
Troops: Guardian Jetbikes
Fast Attack: Shining Spears, Vypers


Pros:
Small jetbike units are excellent for objectives and opportunity shots
Warlocks attacked to jetbikes can serve as both anti-horde and anti-tank (spear & destructor)
Jetlocks are arguably the most resilient and/or hardest hitting of the entries here
Multiple destructor templates

Cons:
Shining spears are overpriced and units are too small
Lack of alternate deployment options
Lose a lot of survivability (and punch) when facing armies with good psychic defenses
Jetbikes don't look as "biker" as other choices



So, what am I missing here?

I've been going toe to toe with my biker marine list against competitive armies (blood angels, space wolves, guard)... drawing more frequently than any other result. The advantages are that I have very few killpoints to give up even at 1850 points... only 8 in my army. I lack ranged firepower though...

to this end, i'm planning on incorporating 4 typhoon speeders into my list, to blow apart monstrous creatures and transports. It seems like a list that has potential to be truly competitive, just extremely hard to master. Make one mistake with a biker squad, place it too close to an enemy, or too far away so your out of firing range, and it could cost you the game. However, it catches many of my opponents off guard. The sight of 30-40 bikers on the table against them unnerves them often, especially the guard players... they are used to being able to shoot down transports, and stop things from getting to them. Not so with a biker marine list. Also, the marine librarian is just brutal. Because you have so much melta / plasma in your squads, null zone is extremely effective. You can also use the often overlooked power vortex of doom, because your relentless. the ability to fire off a str10 ap 1 blast template is not to be underestimated.

I wouldn't do the eldar seer council lists... psychic hoods are common now adays, and really shut down the list badly. I would go as far as to say its not even competitive any more.

Dark angels really can't do anything regular marines can't do... except scouting troops. This is an advantage, to be sure... but only if you get first turn, and even then, they can't turbo boost during their scout move. I'd say this advantage is offset by their increased cost, and lack of typhoon speeders, which are a huge asset in the regular marine codex.

Orks... ork bikers, imo, are overcosted for their abilities. They cost about the same points as a standard marine biker, but i'd rather have the marine's ability to load their bike squads with plasma / melta. Mech armies will roll right over ork bikers. Power claws, while good, are still not the greatest anti-tank out there. You can't beat the ability of a SM troop squad to move up 12", and blast 3 melta shots into a vehicle, so that your command squad can charge the contents.

I had the choice between:

Nob Bikers, Seer Council, Vanilla Bikers.
I'm personally not an Ork fan.
I have a scratch built 'count as' Eldar Jetbike List.

So I ended up taking the Vanilla Bikers, they are the most 'balanced' approach to a biker list, relying less on gimmicks IMO.

I'd probably lean towards SM bikes. I've seen good lists already. The seer council jetbikes are nasty, as are the nob bikers, but I think those armies fall short after those respective deathstar units.

For orks, since I play them, I've been giving them a lot of thought and I think MSU type warbike mobs, 5-man biker mobz with PK nob, could be the way to go. Helps negate the leadership issue (only losing at most 2 ork bikers if they fall back and can't regroup) and helps maximize PK saturation. Combine with a healthy spread of deffkoptas for rokkits and a couple nob deathstars, you might be able to do alright until you hit the missile launcher spam lists and lose your invulnerable save.

Love me some vanilla marines on bikes. Relic Blade is a much on a Capt. if you go that route. Librarian on bike can now reasonably use the 10/1 template power. Good stuff. Don't forget that Techmarine on bike is an option (I think, sorry, barley pop kicking in...).

I do like bike armies, yet if I had to select one I would probably go with Eldar. The main reason is in objective missions or sieze ground if the marker is put on a roof top or on the third story of a building you can't claim it. Also troops in a building on a second floor can never be assaulted since those on ground bikes can never climb up levels in a building unless they are jet bikes.

Technically chaos marines could do this by putting the troops on unicycles.

That has been a serious thought through my head on several occasions, for the exact same reason as the topic of this thread

Also they can do it by running as Ravenwing. Chaos Bikers is an idea I have for next year so I have been thinking on it a lot. Ravenwing wouldnt be that competitive though.

yea, bikes not being able to get to the upper floors is annoying... which is why I'm including a few speeders in my force... to contest those annoying objectives. Alot of tournaments have rulings like "only horizontal distance is measured in holding objectives"... or "objectives cannot be above the second floor of a building". Bikes can take second floor objectives no problem, because their tall enough.

As far as superiority, I would think the Eldar take it, with their warlock squad and all those Vypers and the jetbike super-move capability. Orks definitely win for style though, they look and act more like a biker gang. On the con side though, Eldar warlock biker squads, while awesome, are also ridiculously expensive (in points, time, and $).

Probably the most feasable one is Khan and his white scars. Bikes are their thing. He's got the hair to be a hell's angel too. Use some blood claw heads and paint their chest plates black and have a 'counts as khan' biker army! That could be fun. Harleys use eagles in their logos too.

I think the Khan list is the strongest choice for reasons already given plus you get furious charge with him & his ubiquitous command squad. While the mounted Chaplain might seem like a given due to rerolling hits on the charge & making the unit fearless I think a mounted Librarian is the better choice since an all bike list can be seriously abused by lash. For the command squad I would take one mounted veteran with a power fist & stormshield, the other three veterans should be kitted with a lightning claw & stormshield each; if you can somehow work in a meltagun that would be quite useful as well.

* Forgot to mention that hte Khan has the Hit & Run USR as well.

G

Yeah Khan would be better than Ravenwing..

Losing Combat Tactics for a mild-upgrade to one squad isn't really worth it IMO. I think a regular Captain is both stronger than Khan, and better to protect your expensive bike squads.

Khan lets you take bikes as troops. Combat tactics are not so relevant if all your troops are bike squads, as you can just buy 2 of them instead of buying 1 big one and split it. You get more weapon upgrade options that way anyways.

That's combat SQUADS, not combat tactics. Combat tactics is the invaluable rule that lets you auto-fail LD tests, basically hit&run on everybody ever. With marine bikers, you like to stay out of CC as much as possible with most of your squads (that is, anything w/out a PF AND a charicter, as a rule of thumb) this also lets you shoot them to bits the next turn. I vastly prefer combat tactics to outflank in a biker list. I don't take Khan, because then I have to lose Comat tactics, not because he isn't a swell guy, which he is, head-hunting maniac and all. If you want to outflank, and build an army around that, then by all means, go ahead, my army simply works better as it is.

Sorry terms missmatched in my head. Still, for a 'biker' army he seems like a logical choice, combat tactics or not, because you get bike squads as troops. The outflank is entirely meh in my opinion, it's all about the FOC.

I disagree on the Khan being better than RW. RW not only outflanks but also scouts. If your going first this is huge. Massive Alpha strike potential. Also, do to the RW combat squads, you can have 4 scoring units per troop choice. They also have the scoring land speeder.

Only downside is the lack of the HTH that the Marines command squad can get.

Combat tactics can be quite a risk for bike squads if you are close to your own board edge since bikes fallback 3d6. As far as combat squads go a full bike unit is a lot of points. Most biker armies I have seen are just the min sergeant, two bikers carrying specials & an attack bike.

I wasn't aware that RW can outflank.

G

Sanctjud wrote:I had the choice between:

Nob Bikers, Seer Council, Vanilla Bikers.
I'm personally not an Ork fan.
I have a scratch built 'count as' Eldar Jetbike List.

So I ended up taking the Vanilla Bikers, they are the most 'balanced' approach to a biker list, relying less on gimmicks IMO.

I second Sanctjud.
A vanilla Biker list is the most flexible one, able to take on any enemy.

@Skarboy:
MSU Ork Bikers seems pretty unique…at least it’s something I haven’t seen before. But I have too much love for Smurf Bikers .

@Wildstorm:
I like the delivery of the 10/1, but it’s balanced by:
-His lower BS for scatter.
-Small Blast
-Should he perils, he will instant kill himself…

I think Avenger pulls ahead a bit, with Null as the second power.

Techmarines on a bike are an option, but they are quite overcosted for what they do…I see them only good in say a Khan list…but that’s just throwing points out the window by then

@Borris the Blade:
An ‘all biker’ list sometimes isn’t. They do need supporting options…options that are both competitive and fluffy.
Orks-deffkoptas aren’t ‘bikes’.
SM-Speeders.
Eldar-vypers and prisms.

As for roof and third story… it’s just something you’ll have to live with…you shoot the gak out of them, or throw in something for the purpose of removing enemies from roof tops/higher floors.

Eldar jetbike heavy (though MEQ status) are quite fragile…actually everything is fragile while the damage output is average to below average as they rely heavily on the seer council being the anvil and hammer if you don’t diversify your list and go really pure jetbikes.

@GMMStudios:
Chaos on unicycles, I’m not getting the joke, but other than ‘count as’ CSM bikers don’t score and are overpriced with a shity icon system, all for essentially +1 attack for having 2 close combat weapons.

I have a count as ‘Chaos’ Space Marine biker force. I’m using WFB Chaos Knights as the basis for the 5 man combat squad, the last 3 biker are ‘actually’ bikers. Half of the Attack bikes will be CSM riding Bloodcrushers with the hand-held hvy weapons. The other Half are flying constructs made using the Crisis Suit pieces.

It’s ‘out there’, but it’s been fun.

@Honorstodnt:
True, nice reminder about the second floor issue, though they’ll need to chance dangerous terrain to get to it, but you gotta do what you gotta do.

@Guitardian:
Eldar jetbikes are not that superior in durability or ranged contributions.
BS3 Shuriken cannons even with move-shoot-move are lackluster, their majority guns do not contribute beyond 12”, and have a lack of special weapon equivalents.
The seer council, relies completely and utterly on fortune, and there are more and more psychic defenses these days being used. In addition, they are over tasked by being essentially the sole Anvil, Hammer, and Anti tank units.

Bikes are White Scars’ thing, but not ‘All-bikers’. They are about rapid deployment and use ALL of their options, you can go all Bikers, but it’s not the only way to play them. In addition, you can go with Khan, but just because it’s a White Scars list doesn’t mean you have to go with Khan.

Harley’s in 40K, ‘tis epic.

@Black Blow Fly:
I’m sort of turned off by Khan.
He promotes a Death Star-ish list…but it’s quite limited as the model count for that Death Star is crazy not ideal. In addition the Command Squad offers combat muscle (something that is good for players who want the combat muscle, but I wouldn’t call it a ‘need’ basis), special weapon spam (mass plasma fills in a niche nicely and works well with FNP), or both…which is like a swiss army knife…but gold plated as it’s crazy expensive.

I agree that Libby pulls ahead of the Chappy.

Hit and Run is nice, but (if you go by majority initiative) it fails 1/3 of the time…/shrug.

I guess it’s just me and not Khan. I prefer a list where the army is buffed and not nerfed (army-wide loss of all for a Death Stary unit that is not really maximizing 2 round assaults and can fail

@GMMStudios:
What I would suggest is this:

Ravenwing plays as if you were using a Scalpel.
SMurf Bikers plays as if you were using a Hammer.

Ravenwing focus much more on early delivery of Termies and Special weapons, alpha strike if you like the term.
SM bikers are a bit more of a later game army…it’s not to say they don’t mix and mesh together with respect to usage.

In addition I highly suggest a normal Captain over Khan for a non-death star wanna-be list.

@kaptaink:
I agree.

@Guitardian:
A captain on a bike does the same thing as Khan (to get bikers scoring).
Combat Tactics is a tool to use when the situation arrises, and it will even if it may be few and far between. Outflanking is not a boon, nor a lateral change in Chapter Tactics, it drops the flexibility of the squad in game for a hit or miss deployment.

As for 2 small and 1 big it depends.
MSU works and has it’s cons. While beefer squads have their charms as well.

@Sniperjolly:
Hell fething no, please don’t address it as hit and run… apples to oranges. It’s a bad vibe to mix in the hit and run with Combat Tactics. The activation is very specific and the risks involved are much much greater.
No, the rage is not directed at you, but at the mention of that comparison as it’s used frequently and it’s just not accurate.

Yes, shooting is the way to go, with double tap and charge as the ‘clean up’ option.

@Darkness:
The issue with 4 scoring units per troop choice is that they are 4 kill points…and easily acquired too.
Seize happens after scout moves, so that’s gakky sometimes. Dawn of War sucks too for Ravenwing…and generally, the competitive list is not pure Ravenwing, but Doublewing. Pure Ravenwing is MSU to the max and really doesn’t have any staying power other than advantageous alpha strike.

I don’t think the lack of HTH is that much of an issue if you’d just take the points you’d invest in the command squad and invest in something of equivalent points.
With force concentration, you won’t need the combat muscle the command squad can offer.

-Sanct.

I think the best Biker list is Space Marines. I faced a really good Ultras list at Adepticon that gave me all kinds of problems. The command squad, equipped with storm shields and lightning claws and led by either Khan or a Captain with Relic Blade, is a beast in HtH. The army has a lot of maneuver and a good deal of durability. In the 1850 Championship tournament said list ALSO packed a ten-man unit of assault terminators to dominate the center and be a general pain in the neck, so maybe it wasn’t purely representative of the theme, but it was darn good.

That said, I think Ravenwing has a ton of style, and would earn significant kudos just for showing up.

@Mannahnin:
Yes. All of it, squared.

I run a 9 man Ass termies at 1850 though... one short :(

Sanctjud wrote:@Skarboy:
MSU Ork Bikers seems pretty unique…at least it’s something I haven’t seen before. But I have too much love for Smurf Bikers .

1500:
Warboss w/ pk, stuff
wazdakka
6 nob bikers w/ upgrades
5x 3 bikers + pk nob
rokkit buggies to fill out to 1500 points...

@Wildstorm:
I like the delivery of the 10/1, but it’s balanced by:
-His lower BS for scatter.
-Small Blast
-Should he perils, he will instant kill himself…

I think Avenger pulls ahead a bit, with Null as the second power.

I agree avenger is better here, largely because of the extra mobility granted by the bikes.

I guess it’s just me and not Khan. I prefer a list where the army is buffed and not nerfed (army-wide loss of all for a Death Stary unit that is not really maximizing 2 round assaults and can fail
...
Combat Tactics is a tool to use when the situation arrises, and it will even if it may be few and far between. Outflanking is not a boon, nor a lateral change in Chapter Tactics, it drops the flexibility of the squad in game for a hit or miss deployment.

I wouldn't say giving the whole army outflank is nerfing them. Khan, himself, gets hit&run, furious charge, and makes a decent deathstar unit. Having played against a khan list, that wasn't nearly as bad as the fact that these bikes had a significant threat range of 24" from both table edges (that's the move&rapid-fire range), and an actual threat range that covered the whole table (12" move + 24" shooting bolters, plasma, MMs, etc). If you extend this to where they can hit the turn after they arrive, it's really an army that can be wherever you need to to be. And, sure, sometimes it's unreliable, but so is combat tactics. Sometimes you get stuck in the fight you wanted to get out of and take fearless wounds. Sometimes you don't fall back far enough to avoid the assault - or you get stuck continuing to fall back due to enemy proximity.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mannahnin wrote:I think the best Biker list is Space Marines. I faced a really good Ultras list at Adepticon that gave me all kinds of problems. The command squad, equipped with storm shields and lightning claws and led by either Khan or a Captain with Relic Blade, is a beast in HtH. The army has a lot of maneuver and a good deal of durability. In the 1850 Championship tournament said list ALSO packed a ten-man unit of assault terminators to dominate the center and be a general pain in the neck, so maybe it wasn’t purely representative of the theme, but it was darn good.

Was that Greg Swanson's list? It is a beast.

@Redbeard:
Woo, really nifty list. I might proxy it some day. The only bikers I see are mass nob bikers though...but even that has sort of died down with PBS's floating around

My thoughts on H&R/FC/Death Star have been noted.

Reliability of Outflank and CT... the thing is you have more control and chances of success with CT.
As for board control.

Regular Reserves covers an effective 2x6 area of the board.
Outflank covers 2x(2x4) [but only one] and since they over lap the normal reserves, that cancels out.

So, what we are looking at is really one of two 2x2 areas that is uniquely available to the outflankers.

Outflankers control less of the table when they arrive compared to regular reserves... what people DO do, is weight the unique space more and/or include the total 'possible' area they could control (the 4x4 of both sides of outflanking).

As for using H&R, I'm no stranger to using him. It's just if you go the Death Star route, it has its problems and it (for me at least) feels less of an army and more of just a unit. He takes away from the rest of the list to buff himself and his posse, for better or worse.

At the very least it can be seen as a big shift in list building/play style than if you were to go with a Captain...at the end of the day, the cheaper Captain wins out for me.

I only use Khan for a stupid list that includes the following 'suedo-Death Star':

Khan, bike.
Chappy, bike.
Techmarine, Harness, PW, bike.
Techmarine, Harness, PW, bike.
Techmarine, Harness, PW, bike.
8 Bikers, 2 Meltas, Fist, Multi-Melta Bike.

It's used as one unit for the lolz, I use this for fun in my 1250 Doubles Lists (we share FoC's in our area so my opponent would need to take up one of the IC's and 1 or 2 of the elites)
Then round the list out with 2 biker troops and a trio of each type of Attack Bike in the FA slots.

My standard 1500 all-comers is:
Captain, bike, relic, shield.
8 Bikers, 2 Meltas, Fist, Hvy Bolter Attack Bike.
8 Bikers, 2 Meltas, Fist, Hvy Bolter Attack Bike.
8 Bikers, 2 Flamers, Fist, Hvy Bolter Attack Bike.
3 Multi-Melta Attack Bikes.
3 Multi-Melta Attack Bikes.
3 Hvy Bolter Attack Bikes.
I think 10 points remain.

Redbeard wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mannahnin wrote:I think the best Biker list is Space Marines. I faced a really good Ultras list at Adepticon that gave me all kinds of problems. The command squad, equipped with storm shields and lightning claws and led by either Khan or a Captain with Relic Blade, is a beast in HtH. The army has a lot of maneuver and a good deal of durability. In the 1850 Championship tournament said list ALSO packed a ten-man unit of assault terminators to dominate the center and be a general pain in the neck, so maybe it wasn’t purely representative of the theme, but it was darn good.

Was that Greg Swanson's list? It is a beast.

Brian Crew, from TN’s Blade & Bolter Boyz. Nice guy, and definitely the toughest opponent I faced on Sunday. I played two of their other guys on Friday in the Gladiator, and had two other tight, fun games. Solid bunch of players.

I'd go with Orks, With 2 Biker Warbosses, you can take 2 units of Nob Bikers as troops, and needless to say, Nob Bikers are amazing.

Redbeard: that's basically what I was thinking. That, or combining bikers with the "Flight of the Valkyries" style mass deffkopta attack:

2000 points:
12 bikes (in 4 units, so 4 PK nobs)
6 nob bikers
Wazz and Warboss bikers
15 deffkoptas with rokkits and 5 or 6 buzzsaws for first turn scout move fun

Silly, but would be worth it just for the turn one adventure.

Speak of the freaking devil, holy crap.

A bunch of monowheel marines? LOL, could be fun. These would be ideal cyborks... if cyborks still existed.

Nob Bikers on 25mm

The Horror...The Pain... The Sweet Sweet Tears.