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2010/05/05 00:38:29
Subject: How do you play it? Reserves and Combat Squads.
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Incorporating Wet-Blending
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So I know this is an OLD question, but it just came up recently with my new group.... they play it no, while I can find nothing RAW that prevents units from using the CS rule while deploying from reserves. I'll repost my arguments here for clarity. I welcome debate and the conclusive evidence as to why I may be wrong.
lordhat wrote:I believe that I've been playing (and consequently explaining) Reserves, Deepstrike, and Combat Squads incorrectly. After re-reading the relevant rules it seems it is possible to bring on SM units from reserves and combat squad them. I will post the relevant sections of the rules below(particularly important stuff is CAPITALIZED):
Codex: Space Marines pg. 51, "Combat Squads":
"....The Decision to split the unit into combat squads, as well as which models go into each combat squad, must be made when the unit is DEPLOYED. Both combat squads can be DEPLOYED in separate locations. The one exception to this is a unit that arrives by Drop Pod. The player can choose to split such a unit into combat squads when it disembarks from the Drop Pod."
Here we see that combat squadding happens at deployment, and that deploying by Drop Pod only means that the resultant squads may not be deployed "in different locations".
Warhammer 40,000 Main Rulebook Pg. 94, "Reserves":
"When deploying their army, players may choose NOT to deploy one or more of the units in their army and instead leave them in reserve......"
Here we see that units held in reserve are NOT deployed (into reserve ore anywhere else).
Warhammer 40,000 Main Rulebook Pg. 94, "Reserves":
"....Once all of the units have been rolled for, the player picks any one unit and DEPLOYS it moving it onto the table as described later."
Here we see that units arriving from reserve are "deployed" , fulfilling the requirements for Combat Squadding.
Warhammer 40,000 Main Rulebook Pg. 94, "Outflank":
"...Models move onto the table AS DESCRIBED FOR OTHER RESERVES, above. Note that if such units are picked from their army list together with a dedicated transport, they may outflank with their transport, but if they do so they must move onto the table embarked in it."
As shown earlier, reserves moving onto the table are being 'deployed', so Outflankers also meet all the prerequisites for forming Combat Squads.
There is a problem with Rhinos and Razorbacks, however: If you wish to combat squad an outflanking unit with a Rhino or Razorback, then the Rhino must come onto the board normally, since if the vehicle outflanks, the unit must arrive inside it. If a unit arrives inside a Rhino, it is deployed as a 10 man squad; you can only have one unit inside a vehicle at a time. I'm unsure if you can combat squad a unit and have one of the squads outflank in a Razorback and the other outflank on foot; in the interest of fairplay, I'm going to say not.
Warhammer 40,000 Main Rulebook Pg. 95, "Deepstrike":
"...Roll for arrival of these units as specified in the rules for reserves,and then DEPLOY them as follows."
Here again, we see that (as pointed out in my post about the Storm Raven), Deepstrike is DEPLOYMENT, once more fulfilling the prerequisites for splitting into combat squads.
Warhammer 40,000 Main Rulebook Pg. 93, "Dawn of War":
"....All units that were not deployed, and were not declared to be in reserve, must enter the game in the Movement phase of their first player turn by moving in from their own table edge, JUST LIKE UNITS MOVING IN FROM RESERVE."
As we learned earlier, units moving in from reserve are being deployed, and are, once again, eligible for combat squadding.
So, there is my entire argument. Please pick holes in it, by providing rules and links to GW FAQ's.
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Mannahnin wrote:A lot of folks online (and in emails in other parts of life) use pretty mangled English. The idea is that it takes extra effort and time to write properly, and they’d rather save the time. If you can still be understood, what’s the harm? While most of the time a sloppy post CAN be understood, the use of proper grammar, punctuation, and spelling is generally seen as respectable and desirable on most forums. It demonstrates an effort made to be understood, and to make your post an easy and pleasant read. By making this effort, you can often elicit more positive responses from the community, and instantly mark yourself as someone worth talking to.
insaniak wrote: Every time someone threatens violence over the internet as a result of someone's hypothetical actions at the gaming table, the earth shakes infinitisemally in its orbit as millions of eyeballs behind millions of monitors all roll simultaneously.
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2010/05/05 01:06:09
Subject: How do you play it? Reserves and Combat Squads.
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Blood-Raging Khorne Berserker
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I have no objection to the above and can think of no reason why they would no be allowed to, other than RAW trawling. I like the unbiased poll and massively biased post.  Incidentally, I thought this thread would take minutes to spiral off into whether a squad can deploy half on the board, half in reserves.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/05/05 01:07:02
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2010/05/05 01:08:11
Subject: How do you play it? Reserves and Combat Squads.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Can IG Infantry arriving from reserve use "combined units?" 'Nuff said.
In all seriousness, though, it seems bizarre to me that squads would not be able to use one of these rules when arriving from reserve. The only hole I can see (and I apologize for not having a page number to cite) is when the book describes "deploy forces" as right before "start the game" meaning that "deployment" could mean either the literal placing of the models on the table, or the phase of the game during which deployment decisions are made.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
D'oh! Ninja'd!
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/05/05 01:08:45
 There's just an acre of you fellas, isn't there? |
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2010/05/05 01:13:44
Subject: How do you play it? Reserves and Combat Squads.
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Incorporating Wet-Blending
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Soup and a roll wrote: I like the unbiased poll and massively biased post.
Well like I said, I've come to my conclusion about the rules in question; I merely posted my arguments now to save time later. The poll is just that, a poll on everyone else's opinions, and a chance to prove me wrong. It's been done before and I'm a better player for it.
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Mannahnin wrote:A lot of folks online (and in emails in other parts of life) use pretty mangled English. The idea is that it takes extra effort and time to write properly, and they’d rather save the time. If you can still be understood, what’s the harm? While most of the time a sloppy post CAN be understood, the use of proper grammar, punctuation, and spelling is generally seen as respectable and desirable on most forums. It demonstrates an effort made to be understood, and to make your post an easy and pleasant read. By making this effort, you can often elicit more positive responses from the community, and instantly mark yourself as someone worth talking to.
insaniak wrote: Every time someone threatens violence over the internet as a result of someone's hypothetical actions at the gaming table, the earth shakes infinitisemally in its orbit as millions of eyeballs behind millions of monitors all roll simultaneously.
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2010/05/05 01:16:04
Subject: How do you play it? Reserves and Combat Squads.
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[MOD]
Making Stuff
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Your rules analysis is pretty much spot-on. If the squad is kept in Reserve, it can split as it arrives, as arriving from Reserves is deploying.
You can't split them and put one squad in Reserve and deploy the other, though.
Note that this doesn't apply to Dark Angels, who have a clause in their Combat Squads rule that specifically states that units in Reserve can not break into Combat Squads. This is possibly where some of the confusion is coming from with C: SM Combat Squads.
Lordhat wrote: I'm unsure if you can combat squad a unit and have one of the squads outflank in a Razorback and the other outflank on foot; in the interest of fairplay, I'm going to say not.
You would be unable to do this as you have to declare which units are in transports when you put them into Reserves. As this happens before the unit deploys, it is happening before the unit can be split. So you can have the whole unit in a transport and not split them, or split them and have neither Combat Squad in a transport.
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2010/05/05 03:07:33
Subject: How do you play it? Reserves and Combat Squads.
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Heroic Senior Officer
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Yep, sounds good to me.
And the Razorback in Reserves is definitely a no, since you would have to combat squad tehm while in reserves to be able to put one combat squad in the razorback.
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Don "MONDO"
www.ironfistleague.com
Northern VA/Southern MD |
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2010/05/05 19:56:06
Subject: How do you play it? Reserves and Combat Squads.
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Slippery Scout Biker
Terra
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Gotta say I would allow them to combat squad after being held in reserves. From a rules stand point, they are "deploying" when they roll from reserves. From a fluff standpoint, your sergeant could say he needs the heavy weapon to stay back and provide covering fire for his advance with the other half of the squad. Makes sense no matter how you look at it.
As far as the transports go, I don't feel qualified to say. Never thought about the Razorback thing though.
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In times of war, the law falls silent. |
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2010/05/10 05:55:32
Subject: How do you play it? Reserves and Combat Squads.
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Incorporating Wet-Blending
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So how do you make sense to somebody who can't comprehend what they read? Bear in mind my OP is exactly what I posted in this other discussion. here is the response I get:
Also show me where 1 reserve roll justifies 2 units coming in from reserves? This only happens when units are embarked into vehicles of dedicated transports. So if I buy a 10 man terminator unit it deep strikes I am supposed to allow combat squads becuase you are ("Deploying" moving from reserves to the table top) and have 2 units? If this is the case show me the research that justifies this intention. I am curious about it but I rather have the rule right than not at all.
I've presented everything short of a notarized letter from the devs saying "this is how it works".......
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Mannahnin wrote:A lot of folks online (and in emails in other parts of life) use pretty mangled English. The idea is that it takes extra effort and time to write properly, and they’d rather save the time. If you can still be understood, what’s the harm? While most of the time a sloppy post CAN be understood, the use of proper grammar, punctuation, and spelling is generally seen as respectable and desirable on most forums. It demonstrates an effort made to be understood, and to make your post an easy and pleasant read. By making this effort, you can often elicit more positive responses from the community, and instantly mark yourself as someone worth talking to.
insaniak wrote: Every time someone threatens violence over the internet as a result of someone's hypothetical actions at the gaming table, the earth shakes infinitisemally in its orbit as millions of eyeballs behind millions of monitors all roll simultaneously.
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2010/05/10 15:23:06
Subject: How do you play it? Reserves and Combat Squads.
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Troubled By Non-Compliant Worlds
Houston, TX
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I feel your pain Lordhat. Check this monstrous thread on the subject.
http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=6439
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DS:70S++G+MB+++I+Pw40k01#-D++++A++/mWD279R+T(D)DM+
>Three engineering students were gathered together discussing who must have designed the human body.
>One said, "It was a mechanical engineer. Just look at all the joints."
>Another said, "No, it was an electrical engineer. The nervous system has many thousands of electrical connections."
>The last one said, "No, actually it had to have been a civil engineer.
>Who else would run a toxic waste pipeline through a recreational area.
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2010/05/10 16:47:43
Subject: Re:How do you play it? Reserves and Combat Squads.
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Regular Dakkanaut
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There is no discussion... the guidebook clearly states what to do... point out to those who are erred that the vanilla space marine codex clearly states that when a unit is deployed that unit can combat squad. Note the verb "Deploy" is used when the unit is coming on the table from reserves, before turn 1, from a drop pod whatever method the unit gets on the table, that unit is being "Deployed". Also, keep in mind that different codexes cause problems in understanding combat squadding from reserves. Point out the Dark Angels codex entry for combat squadding, its different, this is where people get confused. If you put both codexes next to each other in front of people who dont understand combat squadding in full you'll show a lot of people how it correctly works.
Page 23 of the Dark Angels Codex
Page 51 of the Vanilla Space Marine Codex
Have them read the combat squadding section out loud and completely, then and only then can people be persuaded to realize how this correctly works.
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2010/05/11 00:27:41
Subject: Re:How do you play it? Reserves and Combat Squads.
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Incorporating Wet-Blending
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visavismeyou wrote:There is no discussion... the guidebook clearly states what to do... point out to those who are erred that the vanilla space marine codex clearly states that when a unit is deployed that unit can combat squad. Note the verb "Deploy" is used when the unit is coming on the table from reserves, before turn 1, from a drop pod whatever method the unit gets on the table, that unit is being "Deployed". Also, keep in mind that different codexes cause problems in understanding combat squadding from reserves. Point out the Dark Angels codex entry for combat squadding, its different, this is where people get confused. If you put both codexes next to each other in front of people who dont understand combat squadding in full you'll show a lot of people how it correctly works.
Page 23 of the Dark Angels Codex
Page 51 of the Vanilla Space Marine Codex
Have them read the combat squadding section out loud and completely, then and only then can people be persuaded to realize how this correctly works.
I wish it worked like that. Unfortunately some people can't understand that a rule doesn't work a certain way simply because they believe they know what was intended. Even mentioning the DA rules just backs up their belief that "that's how it's supposed to work".
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/05/11 00:28:04
Mannahnin wrote:A lot of folks online (and in emails in other parts of life) use pretty mangled English. The idea is that it takes extra effort and time to write properly, and they’d rather save the time. If you can still be understood, what’s the harm? While most of the time a sloppy post CAN be understood, the use of proper grammar, punctuation, and spelling is generally seen as respectable and desirable on most forums. It demonstrates an effort made to be understood, and to make your post an easy and pleasant read. By making this effort, you can often elicit more positive responses from the community, and instantly mark yourself as someone worth talking to.
insaniak wrote: Every time someone threatens violence over the internet as a result of someone's hypothetical actions at the gaming table, the earth shakes infinitisemally in its orbit as millions of eyeballs behind millions of monitors all roll simultaneously.
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2010/05/11 01:02:46
Subject: How do you play it? Reserves and Combat Squads.
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[MOD]
Making Stuff
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All you can do is show the relevant rules quotes (units are split into combat squads on deployment, arriving from reserves is deployment) and hope he'll see reason.
If not, assuming it's a friendly (ie: non-independently judged) game, then you have 3 options:
1 - accept his interpretation and get on with the game
2 - roll off on it or
3 - don't play him.
But keep in mind that this is a game of toy soldiers we're discussing here... so which you choose largely just comes down to how badly you need to be 'right'...
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2010/05/11 01:09:44
Subject: How do you play it? Reserves and Combat Squads.
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Incorporating Wet-Blending
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insaniak wrote:All you can do is show the relevant rules quotes (units are split into combat squads on deployment, arriving from reserves is deployment) and hope he'll see reason.
If not, assuming it's a friendly (ie: non-independently judged) game, then you have 3 options:
1 - accept his interpretation and get on with the game
2 - roll off on it or
3 - don't play him.
But keep in mind that this is a game of toy soldiers we're discussing here... so which you choose largely just comes down to how badly you need to be 'right'...
Well since the guy in question seems to have the ability to simply dictate how rules are used in the gaming club, it's a tad bit important, although unless I can change his mind I'll be playing "Rules as I want them to read". Also he runs all the club tournies, and supposedly this is a club focused on going to non club tournaments ( GT's Adepticon, etc.).....
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/05/11 01:10:14
Mannahnin wrote:A lot of folks online (and in emails in other parts of life) use pretty mangled English. The idea is that it takes extra effort and time to write properly, and they’d rather save the time. If you can still be understood, what’s the harm? While most of the time a sloppy post CAN be understood, the use of proper grammar, punctuation, and spelling is generally seen as respectable and desirable on most forums. It demonstrates an effort made to be understood, and to make your post an easy and pleasant read. By making this effort, you can often elicit more positive responses from the community, and instantly mark yourself as someone worth talking to.
insaniak wrote: Every time someone threatens violence over the internet as a result of someone's hypothetical actions at the gaming table, the earth shakes infinitisemally in its orbit as millions of eyeballs behind millions of monitors all roll simultaneously.
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2010/05/11 01:40:22
Subject: Re:How do you play it? Reserves and Combat Squads.
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Lordhat wrote:I wish it worked like that. Unfortunately some people can't understand that a rule doesn't work a certain way simply because they believe they know what was intended. Even mentioning the DA rules just backs up their belief that "that's how it's supposed to work".
Yea I played against a guy who swore that the machine spirit on my Vanilla Marines LRC shot at a reduced BS. He said it was in the Codex entry so I showed him the Codex entry; he said it was FAQ'd... I showed him the SM FAQ... he said it was in a GW release... I laughed and walked away... Some people cannot be satisfied or reasoned with and those people are irrelevant to those of us who are interested only in reality. Automatically Appended Next Post: Lordhat wrote:Warhammer 40,000 Main Rulebook Pg. 94, "Reserves":
"When deploying their army, players may choose NOT to deploy one or more of the units in their army and instead leave them in reserve......"
Here we see that units held in reserve are NOT deployed (into reserve ore anywhere else).
Just want to clear up any possible confusion Lordhat. It sounds like you're saying here that units deployed from reserves are not deployed but are "Somethinged else" (misspelling is purposeful). Just wanted to point this out and ask you what you mean by this point, your conclusion you get to is correct, but I'm just curious what you're trying to say by this line.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/05/11 01:47:16
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2010/05/11 01:48:42
Subject: How do you play it? Reserves and Combat Squads.
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[MOD]
Making Stuff
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Lordhat wrote:Well since the guy in question seems to have the ability to simply dictate how rules are used in the gaming club, it's a tad bit important, ...
Is it, though?
Ultimately, if you wind up playing that reserves can't combat squad, does that really have that huge an impact on the game?
Every gaming venue winds up with their own house rules. You can certainly do what you can to change house rules that you don't agree with... but ultimately, if everyone else is happy to play that way, you'll save yourself a lot of angst if you either play their way or find somewhere else to play.
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2010/05/11 04:58:57
Subject: Re:How do you play it? Reserves and Combat Squads.
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Incorporating Wet-Blending
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visavismeyou wrote:Lordhat wrote:I wish it worked like that. Unfortunately some people can't understand that a rule doesn't work a certain way simply because they believe they know what was intended. Even mentioning the DA rules just backs up their belief that "that's how it's supposed to work".
Yea I played against a guy who swore that the machine spirit on my Vanilla Marines LRC shot at a reduced BS. He said it was in the Codex entry so I showed him the Codex entry; he said it was FAQ'd... I showed him the SM FAQ... he said it was in a GW release... I laughed and walked away... Some people cannot be satisfied or reasoned with and those people are irrelevant to those of us who are interested only in reality.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lordhat wrote:Warhammer 40,000 Main Rulebook Pg. 94, "Reserves":
"When deploying their army, players may choose NOT to deploy one or more of the units in their army and instead leave them in reserve......"
Here we see that units held in reserve are NOT deployed (into reserve ore anywhere else).
Just want to clear up any possible confusion Lordhat. It sounds like you're saying here that units deployed from reserves are not deployed but are "Somethinged else" (misspelling is purposeful). Just wanted to point this out and ask you what you mean by this point, your conclusion you get to is correct, but I'm just curious what you're trying to say by this line.
In the past I've seen a lot of people claim that units were "deployed" into reserve, was just trying to head that argument off at the pass.
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Mannahnin wrote:A lot of folks online (and in emails in other parts of life) use pretty mangled English. The idea is that it takes extra effort and time to write properly, and they’d rather save the time. If you can still be understood, what’s the harm? While most of the time a sloppy post CAN be understood, the use of proper grammar, punctuation, and spelling is generally seen as respectable and desirable on most forums. It demonstrates an effort made to be understood, and to make your post an easy and pleasant read. By making this effort, you can often elicit more positive responses from the community, and instantly mark yourself as someone worth talking to.
insaniak wrote: Every time someone threatens violence over the internet as a result of someone's hypothetical actions at the gaming table, the earth shakes infinitisemally in its orbit as millions of eyeballs behind millions of monitors all roll simultaneously.
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2010/05/11 07:44:19
Subject: How do you play it? Reserves and Combat Squads.
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Hardened Veteran Guardsman
Melbourne, Australia
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i believe that the GW wording is that unit that have not been deployed on the table are assumed to be placed/held (not deployed) in reserve
they are not deployed unit they hit the table
ed: i should mention that i do not have the BRB with me - trying to recall from memory
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/05/11 07:53:41
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2010/05/11 09:16:37
Subject: How do you play it? Reserves and Combat Squads.
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[ADMIN]
Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Lordhat wrote:So how do you make sense to somebody who can't comprehend what they read? Bear in mind my OP is exactly what I posted in this other discussion. here is the response I get:
Also show me where 1 reserve roll justifies 2 units coming in from reserves? This only happens when units are embarked into vehicles of dedicated transports. So if I buy a 10 man terminator unit it deep strikes I am supposed to allow combat squads becuase you are ("Deploying" moving from reserves to the table top) and have 2 units? If this is the case show me the research that justifies this intention. I am curious about it but I rather have the rule right than not at all.
I've presented everything short of a notarized letter from the devs saying "this is how it works".......
My only response to that person would be that when you're rolling for reserves you *are* rolling for a single unit, however once they become available you have to deploy them onto the table, either by walking them onto the board or by Deep Strike (both of which state that you are 'deploying' the unit as you've already quoted), so at THAT point (when you're going to deploy them onto the table) you're splitting them.
Doing this results in the unit being split into two and no rules being broken and therefore it is allowed.
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2010/05/12 03:39:46
Subject: How do you play it? Reserves and Combat Squads.
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Sniping Gŭiláng
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I agree with your core argument, anything that is being deployed that has the ability to combat squad may do so.
Choosing not to deploy and hold them in reserve is permitted and does not preclude your ability to combat squad the unit on entry, i dont think any raw bashing would be able to argue that point (except for 4th ed rules).
Issues arise however if you get people trying to do silly things, such as put a 10 man squad in a razorback and combat squad half the unit out of the vehicle when it is deployed with the other half in it.
The books as you've pointed out are quite prescriptive in the vanilla case, and personally, if they choose not to follow RAW in this case then i'd honestly be tempted to say GG.
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