Are Marines dead?

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**Kogwar**

I have noticed the recent releases of space wolves and the blood angels codex and i have notic ethat both ( Mostly so the blood angels codex) seem to almost remder the basic marine codex obsolite and i see almost no reason from a tactical stand point to play normal marines aside form the special charictor coudl you please tell me if i am off.

**TheBlackVanguard**

While I have to agree with you that the good old vanilla marines are not as "super powered" as the blood angels or the space wolves I think that by no means are they dead. there's just too many guys who like to paint their marines a certain way for example crimson fist players or salamanders or ultramarines to name a few. Beyond that the vanilla codex allows for some playing with chapters like if you want to create your own with your own background fluff then you can because you have the regular space marine codex that has rules that apply to all marines. So yes Blood Angels and Space Wolves have ridiculously more powerful stuff but no Old School Marines aren't going anywhere.

**Honersstodnt**

not dead, but certainly annoyed at how these offshoot chapters get almost everything that makes codex marines good, then add their own good crap on top of it.

**Black Corsair**

Welll.... they cannot have a Motorcycle army^^ (something i have to say for vanilla mehreens no?) but yes... vanilla codex is the only way to field it....

anyway, its all true about that Space Puppies and Twilight marines are significantly OP if its compared to smurfs and their friends...

**Kogwar**

I think most armys coudl eb made witht he blood angels codex and there devs are cheaper wtf

**Dedrith**

Black Corsair wrote:Welll.... they cannot have a Motorcycle army^^ (something i have to say for vanilla mehreens no?) but yes... vanilla codex is the only way to field it....

anyway, its all true about that Space Puppies and Twilight marines are significantly OP if its compared to smurfs and their friends...

You may not be able to take a Biker army with Blood Angels, but with all the fast-moving vehicles and units, why would you need to? Personally I think it's ridiculous exactly how over powered the Blood Angels are, and I would, without a doubt, say that Vanilla Marines are dead.

**JSK-Fox**

Well, I'm an avid Vanilla Marine player and to them being dead, I have but one thing to say:

BUUUUUUUUULLLLLLLLLLSH-- Oh hi there mod! Just minding my own buisness...

The Emperor is not pleased with your heresy.

**daedalus**

Kogwar wrote:I have noticed the recent releases of space wolves and the blood angels codex and i have notic ethat both ( Mostly so the blood angels codex) seem to almost remder the basic marine codex obsolite and i see almost no reason from a tactical stand point to play normal marines aside form the special charictor coudl you please tell me if i am off.

Haha! Not at all. That just means that it's finally acceptable for the rest of us cool kids to pick them up.

**Deuce11**

C:SM still has too many creative/competitive builds as well as the best general psychers. As I have pointed out in my own thread about the numerous loyalist marine dexes, there is still a place for C:SM but GK, DA, and BT are all up for updates and I really think something has got to give. I think we have enough MEQs already. Might as well just produce a special character addendum to C:SM to give special rules and FOC changes for DA and BT builds.

**BobTheChainsaw**

BA and SW don't have Vulkan. They don't have Null Zone. They don't have biker armies.

/end thread.

**Gornall**

BobTheChainsaw wrote:BA and SW don't have Vulkan. They don't have Null Zone. They don't have biker armies.

/end thread.

If that's the only thing Vanilla SM has over them, then it is a sad day. You have a single IC that inspires a very cookie cutter build and is an auto comp hit most of the time (even if your Marines are green), a single Psychic power, and an expensive, niche army army that doesn't represent mainstream Marines and is somewhat limited in competitiveness.

To me, it seems like the Vanilla codex is quickly becoming the "Other Chapters" dex. It allows you to do limited versions of Ironhands, White Scars, Ravenwing, Crimson Fists, Sallies, etc, and has all the Smurf special characters. However for generic, run-of-the-mill Marines, you're almost better off using the BA dex as it has more of the fast, hard-hitting strike force feel to it that I (with my not-so-expert opinion) think represents Marines. It has almost all the generic units (Vanguard, Sternguard, Libbys, Dreads, Preds, Terminators, etc) and many are either cheaper, more effective, or both. Yeah, some of the toys are expensive as heck, but the meat and potatoes of the army is still pretty nice.

**Honersstodnt**

exactly. I run an aurora chapter army... known for predator and land raider spearheads....

I'd be MUCH better off going with codex blood angels, because I could field 6 predators, and then put all my troops in land raiders. It'd be badass.

**Terminus**

Oh gawd, another one of these idiotic threads.

The amount of retardation rampant in this thread is off the scale.

**Skarboy**

Vanilla marines still have more tactical versatility than either SW or BA and are still very viable. If I was to put together a shooty Marine list, I'd lean towards SM over the other two despite the Predator and Long Fang options. BA and SW just do their "specialty" things better than SM, but SM are still good "all around" forces.

**Mortified Penguin**

Terminus wrote:Oh gawd, another one of these idiotic threads.

The amount of retardation rampant in this thread is off the scale.

Another brilliantly thought out and stunningly persuasive argument from Terminus.

-

I'd argue that while the base Marine (heh) codex isn't dead, it is being sidelined. Mind you, that's the inevitable result of being the first codex out after a new edition when codex creep is a known factor.

**Mannahnin**

I disagree categorically with the thread's premise.

The basic SM codex does a good many things differently and even better than the SW or BA codices. This is one of the best parts of current GW design. They’ve managed to make SM armies which actually play differently than one another and are good.

SM do bring units and psychic powers with SW & BA don’t get, and a good many characters who alter the
way the army performs and the things it can do. A friend of mine is running a Fleeting army led by Shrike right now which is pretty darn cool. Vulkan armies have already been mentioned. Khan makes for an excellent biker army, but even a regular Captain on a bike can do this, and is a cheap quality HTH HW with a relic blade.

**Kogwar**

The agree with the people who say the codex is being sidelined i just find it kind of stupid that what should eb the main codex is being side lined by what should be the alt codex i liked it when ba where good but they were more assaulty instead of we haev everything you do with extra stuff and also get most of your stuff some of ti cheap even though we are suposed to be an assaulty army we have cheaper shootys.

**Gorgarak**

Everyone keeps saying you may as well use the blood angels book to make a marine army. Why not do it? Just paint your army whatever color you want, say they are blood angels and go have fun.

As far as marines being dead? I seem to remember awhile back when the new SM codex came out, and everyone couldn't stop raving about how much better it was, how marines rocked so harder now, etc. I wouldn't base the death of SM on a new BA or SW codex.

Personally I can't stand BA or SW. I find alot of the specialized SM codex's add a very lack luster effect to the 40K universe. There's already, what, 6 varient SM codexs? including DH, IG and WH, that's 9 armies for humans, 8 armies for Xenos, of which 2 armies have yet to be updated since, oh, at least 5 years ago, as well as C:SM, which really, aside from some daemonic choices, are similar to SM in many ways model wise anyway. A little more support for some of the Xenos armies would be awesome, as GW has made it abundantly clear that the Emperor and his followers are clearly the main focus of 40K, and we won't plauge their complaint box too badly if they throw a bone to non-Inquisition and SM players.

**Deuce11**

@ Gorgarak

I am a Marine player and have been for many years and I totally agree with you.

**TheDiffidentOne**

Well, things like Thunderfire Cannons and Sternguard are still hard to come by in the SW codex, in addition to what has been said about all bike armies.

**Honersstodnt**

this is the reason i'm doing a biker marine army, really. I want my army to be different from other SM armies, and with a standard codex force, its just the same as mech wolves or mech blood angels, just with a shootier emphasis.

Playing bikers is sweet, because people load up on anti-tank to bust open chimeras / land raiders / rhinos, and then boom, I have nothing but infantry coming at you. Sure, krak missiles are effective against troops, but not nearly as much as high str multi-shot weapons (bikes are either turbo boosting, or behind a unit that turbo boosted, to give cover)

**Brother SRM**

I play multiple flavors of Marines, and the only codex I see as truly dead is the Dark Angels one. Everything it can do can be better by other books. I use Codex: Space Marines with my Crimson Fists, and they're a very different army from my Space Wolves. My Flesh Tearers will be a bit different, as will my Iron Warriors. Then again, I love Marines too much, so ignore me if you want.