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Hi guys - I didn't see another thread ask this question, but if I missed it I apologize.

Pretty much my question revolves around the new Magna Grapple and how it interacts against your opponent's squaded vehicles. For example, say I'm unable destroy one of the vehicles in the squadron with the attack and therefore was able to pull it towards the firing dreadnaught. I assume only the targetted vehicle gets pulled and not the whole squad, so what would happen if the squadron is now out of unit coherency?

IIRC, unit cohesion is only checked during your movement phase if done by an opponent (I dont have my rulebook near me). As an example, when killing off figures due to unsaved wounds it is ok to kill them off in such a way they are out of cohesion as long as the controlling player move them into cohesion during their movement phase. I would let the magna grapple player move one figure but make the rest of the squadron move into cohesion at the beginning of their movement phase

Is it possible to allocate the hit from the grapple to any member of the squadron, thereby causing the vehicle to bump into another vehicle in the squadron and ending the move?

Hehe you beat me to my follow up question

Good question. But what if that other vehicle is beyond the 12" range of the grapple?

Yes, as the rules for squadrons allow you to allocate to any vehicle you wish, and nothign I saw in the Magna Grapple rules overrides this.

I guess the question comes down to: is the magna grapple pull a "hit" to be allocated. I'm purely going off memory here so please stop me if I'm wrong, but I believe the "pull" part of the grapple is worded as an after effect of the original str 8 attack not a seperate attack in itself. So the pull would come off of the model the opponent designated as taking the original str 8 hit even if it's outside the 12 inch range of the weapon.

The pull comes if the S8 hit penetrates, so the vehicle it penetrated is the one that gets pulled.

to save gwar the trouble... vehicle squadrons allow you to allocate glancing and penetrating hits. per strict RAW, you can only allocate it to a vehicle of your choice if you're recieving it if it actually glances/penetrates. otherwise, it grapples the target nominated by the firer if it fails to do any damage. can you allocate it if it glances/pens to a back member of the squad technically out of range? sure, just like you can pull an ork in the back of a mob 24" away from the guy with the melta gun killing him.

Awesome. Thank you everyone for the help!

nosferatu1001 wrote:The pull comes if the S8 hit penetrates, so the vehicle it penetrated is the one that gets pulled.

Wrong, if the hit vehicle is not destroyed, then you roll a D6 and add 8, if the roll is equal to or higher than the AV of the hit vehicle, then the hit vehicle is moved 2d6 inches directly towards the dread. It tank shocks all units on its way to base to base contact (or the extent of the 2d6) with the Dread.

So, all this happens AFTER the hit is resolved and you figure out whether or not it is penetrated/glanced then you roll another d6 and find out if the grapple attaches properly and the dread has the leverage to pull it 2d6 inches.

Also, about squadrons... Rather iffy area. Kinda difficult to find a directly perfect RAW answer whether the firer selects a target or the owner of the squadron allocates the hit... More research needed for me to be satisfied one way or the other on this second question.






I'm going to quote Gwar's FAQ as he says it better than I can:

Gwar's Unofficial Blood Angle's Codex FAQ wrote:Magna-Grapple
BA.60.04 – Q: Can a “Magna-Grapple” be used to pull a model belonging to a Vehicle Squadron out of Coherency?
A: Yes, it can. Remember that a unit that finds itself out of coherency for whatever reason must attempt to move back into coherency in the next
possible Movement phase. [R.a.W]
BA.60.05 – Q: Can Cover saves or Invulnerable saves be taken against the “Grapple” effect of the “Magna-Grapple”?
A: No. [R.a.W]
BA.60.06 – Q: If a “Magna-Grapple” hits a vehicle but fails to cause a roll on the Vehicle Damage Table, does the “Grapple” special rule still
take effect?
A: Yes. The “Grapple” effect takes place whenever a “Magna-Grapple” “hits a vehicle and it is not destroyed.” Obviously, if no roll on the
Vehicle Damage Table was made, the vehicle has not been destroyed, so the “Grapple” rule takes effect. [R.a.W]
BA.60.07 – Q: If a “Magna-Grapple” successfully moves a “Damaged – Immobilised” or “Crew – Stunned” enemy vehicle via the “Grapple”
special rule, can the vehicle now move in it's next movement phase?
A: No. While “Grapple” states that the vehicle is “able to move normally”, both “Damaged – Immobilised” and “Crew – Stunned” state that
the vehicle cannot move. Since moving would break one of the two rules applicable, while not moving does not break any rules, the vehicle
cannot move. [R.a.W]

I was getting confused with the Impaler, which does require a penetrating hit.

You are incorrect in that it only tank shocks non-vehicle units, as a ram is a tank shock.

When firing at a squadron your Target is the unit, and all it requires is that the target is moved. So whichever vehicle the hit is allocated to is the one moved.

nosferatu1001 wrote:When firing at a squadron your Target is the unit, and all it requires is that the target is moved. So whichever vehicle the hit is allocated to is the one moved.

See, what I'm still confused about is this, and I am placing this into the category of a vague interaction of rules.

Once all of the armour penetration rolls have been
made, the player controlling the squadron allocates the
glancing and penetrating hits to squadron members as
he would allocate wounds to members of a normal
unit.

So the dread shoots at a squadron, it hits, it rolls to penetrate and fails. The Magna-grapple still does its function though with a second d6 roll. The player controlling the squadron would allocate the glancing and penetrating hits but would not allocate the magna grapple which still functions even if no glance or pene was rolled on the vehicle damage result roll.

This is the area i'm confused about, when a Magna-grapple hits but does not penetrate or even glance against a squadron, I do not know what happens.

For the side of fluff, I can see why I magna grapple even though it does not penetrate or even glance would still be able to attach and pull the target vehicle, it doesn't hit hard enough to even shake the crew, however, it attaches to the exterior of the vehicle and thus needs a second roll to see if the attachment is good enough and if the dread has proper leverage to pull the vehicle. I just dont know how this is resolved against a squadron.

visavismeyou wrote:
This is the area i'm confused about, when a Magna-grapple hits but does not penetrate or even glance against a squadron, I do not know what happens.

It happens (or doesn't happen) as you illustrated here?

visavismeyou wrote:

if the hit vehicle is not destroyed, then you roll a D6 and add 8, if the roll is equal to or higher than the AV of the hit vehicle, then the hit vehicle is moved 2d6 inches directly towards the dread. It tank shocks all units on its way to base to base contact (or the extent of the 2d6) with the Dread.

So, all this happens AFTER the hit is resolved and you figure out whether or not it is penetrated/glanced then you roll another d6 and find out if the grapple attaches properly and the dread has the leverage to pull it 2d6 inches.

ChrisCP wrote:

visavismeyou wrote:
This is the area i'm confused about, when a Magna-grapple hits but does not penetrate or even glance against a squadron, I do not know what happens.

It happens (or doesn't happen) as you illustrated here?

visavismeyou wrote:

if the hit vehicle is not destroyed, then you roll a D6 and add 8, if the roll is equal to or higher than the AV of the hit vehicle, then the hit vehicle is moved 2d6 inches directly towards the dread. It tank shocks all units on its way to base to base contact (or the extent of the 2d6) with the Dread.

So, all this happens AFTER the hit is resolved and you figure out whether or not it is penetrated/glanced then you roll another d6 and find out if the grapple attaches properly and the dread has the leverage to pull it 2d6 inches.

The confusion is over which individual vehicle in the squadron is pulled. Does the owner select as he would if there was a glancing or penetrating hit? or does the owner of the dreadnaught decide as he is targeting a vehicle. I dont see a solution to this interaction.

Page 64 "the player controlling the squadron allocates the glancing and penetrating hits to squadron members as he would allocate wounds to members of a normal unit."

It's the player owning the squadron as nothing tell the Dread player they may decide who is hit by their shot/s. And this placement of hit/s by the Squadron player is what dictates the Magna's target.

I agree with visavismeyou, the first big issue is what to do if the shot hits but fails to penetrate or glance. At that point there are two important facts:

1. The dreadnought fired at the vehicle squadron, not one of the vehicles in the squadron.
2. There was no penetrating or glancing hit to allocate to any of the squadron members.

So what grounds is there to extrapolate from the current shooting rules and say that non-penetrating, non-glancing hits are allocated to squadron members and that allocation of the hit constitutes "targeting" any particular squadron member? The rules as written are silent and we're stuck with making things up in order to continue. One might just as well claim that the dreadnought is able to specifically target a squadron member.

One might even conclude that RaW the Magna Grappler doesn't do anything to vehicle squadrons since those rules use "vehicle" and "target" interchangeably, indicating that the rules were only worked out for the weapon being used on individual vehicles.

Or, a person could argue that when firing at a vehicle squadron, the target was a vehicle squadron and so everywhere in the Magna Grappler rules that the word target is used, the rules are referring to the entire squadron. As a result, even if the first shot destroys one of the squadron members, since the target (the vehicle squadron) wasn't destroyed, then the grapple rules still try to move either one of the squadron members or the entire squadron closer to the dreadnought.

It certainly leaves much to be desired in clarity of intended application.

ok heres a question the hit is allocated to a vehicle in the rear of the squadron i grapple it and pull it 2d6 inches forward into one of the vehicles what would the str be
lets use a rhino as an example would it be
the distance pulled + 1 for being a tank+1 armor
or
the distance moved in the movement phase + the distance pulled + 1 for tank +1 for armor?

the first gives a max str of 6 the second a max str of 10 assuming the rhino moved and was pulled 12" each

Distance pulled as that is the movement we are looking at.
I know that's not super clear but yeah, only the distance one is being pulled.

Note that the Magna Grapple can't cause the dragged vehicle to perform a ram because "The target does not change facing and will stop if it comes within 1" of ... another vehicle (friendly or enemy)" and it only tank shocks non-vehicle units.

So it doesn't matter whether or not a ram is a type of tank shock.

Yay for my FAQ being Quotified!

But in Short, Yes, they can be pulled out of coherency, the model hit is the one moved, even if that model is more than 12" away and it happens even if no Damage is caused.

nosferatu1001 wrote:You are incorrect in that it only tank shocks non-vehicle units, as a ram is a tank shock.

I dont know how I missed this, but yea, grappled vehicles will not tank ram because the MG rule explicitly state so.

Gwar! wrote:Yay for my FAQ being Quotified!

You're welcome! You deserve it man, you've done a good job.

Gwar! wrote:But in Short, Yes, they can be pulled out of coherency, the model hit is the one moved, even if that model is more than 12" away and it happens even if no Damage is caused.

I would be interested to hear your responses to the situation that Solkan and I have brought up. He has codified the situation better than I:

solkan wrote:I agree with visavismeyou, the first big issue is what to do if the shot hits but fails to penetrate or glance. At that point there are two important facts:

1. The dreadnought fired at the vehicle squadron, not one of the vehicles in the squadron.
2. There was no penetrating or glancing hit to allocate to any of the squadron members.

Which individual model is moved? Who chooses this model and what relevant rule(s) govern this? I'm writing this off as the guidebook failing yet again and I would play it simply to follow the precedence of "Owner of squadron allocates it" as a houserule and move on. Do you concur Gwar?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

solkan wrote: and it only tank shocks non-vehicle units.

Furthermore, it will only tank shock non-vehicle units that are not locked in combat, I thought I would bring this up because it is towards the end of the rule so I'm sure people are going to miss it.

Hmm, I had missed that situation. I would say that it's another situation of the RaW failing and assploding the game. :(

Gwar! wrote:Hmm, I had missed that situation. I would say that it's another situation of the RaW failing and assploding the game. :(

lol HE ESPLODED DADDY!

Nice, anyway, yea, now the arduous task of explaining this to my friends... Here goes another 45 minutes of my life this weekend...