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Librarian - 140
- Terminator Armor, Storm Shield

Terminator Squad - 460
- 2 Thunder Hammer + Storm Shield
- 3 Lightning Claws
- Land Raider Crusader w/ Multi-Melta

Dreadnought - 125
- Assault Cannon, Heavy Flamer

Tactical Squad x10 - 265
- Meltagun, Plasma Cannon
- Sergeant w/ Combi-Melta
- Razorback w/ TL-Lascannon

Tactical Squad x10 - 255
- Meltagun, Plasma Cannon
- Razorback w/ TL-Lascannon

Tactical Squad x10 - 210
- Flamer, Missile Launcher
- Razorback w/ TL-Heavy Bolter

Vindicator - 115

Vindicator - 115

Predator - 165
- TL-Lascannon, Lascannon Sponsons

The Librarian joins the terminators in the LRC. Not really sure what psychic powers to take with him. I'm thinking Null Zone + something else. Possible Avenger, Gate of Infinity, or Might of the Ancients. GoI would be nice but they're never going to be far from the Raider so I'm not sure if they'd ever really need it.

The Tactical Squads will Combat Squad (unless it's kill points) and depending on the foe will either mount up with the Sergeant and special weapon in the Razorbacks or just form a fire base with the Dreadnought on as many home objectives as I can get.

The Vindicators have always made it into my lists with lots of success. The Predator is there for some more AT kick. I understand the Tri-Las build is a bit point inefficient, but this will be a WSYIWYG tournament and it's the only setup I have available. I could be convinced to swap it out for something else.

Not a bad list overall. A killer HTH squad with libby, artillery, and some tac squads. Personaly I don't use dreds or preds. I would use the points for another tac squad with an AT razorback like you have. Other than that I like it.

Minor change would be to drop the over costed TLLC on the pred for another LasPlas on the rhino and a combi flamer for the sarge in that squad.

Would consider droping a Plamsa Cannon for another combi weapon on the third tactical squad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
and TH/SS>>LC

The only major issue I have with this list is the dreadnought and predator. I would either exchange them for two rifleman dreads + 40 pts to spare. Or going the other way making three AC/HB preds and still have 35 pts to spare. This would give you a las/plas option for the last razorback.

3 Dakka preds would require him to remove his two Vindicators as well. The ACLC pred is just as good as the rifelman dread at poping light transports and also have the possibility of poping heavy armour. Taking a auto cannon instead of the Assault cannon might be a good idea tho. I would keep the dread in the back as so it can help out vs deepstrikers and such that could whipe out all your combat squaded tacticals...

Sorry, my bad forgot about the vindicators taking up heavy slots.

My only thought about what looks like a pretty tough all-rounder list with all its bases covered: I hate seeing a LRC that isn't packed with its full cargo space. You asked to be convinced to swap out the weapons on your point-inefficient predator... maybe that could be the coaxing? Turn it into a Destructor pattern instead of the Annihilator saves 80 points (you already have lots of anti-tank)...

80 points means a nice full LRC with two more terminators stuffed in it. I believe the Destructor is far more efficient than the Annihilator, because it is so much cheaper, and just as hard to pop from the front, just as easy from the side.

Besides all that, you are already packing some other lascannons and meltas spread out all over the place, and what you are lacking a bit in is heavy dakka stuff. So far you only have the TL Heavy Bolter on the one razor, and the single assault cannon on the dread. You could use a bit more heavy ROF weapons just in case you run into orks in the first round. Can never have too much dakka and that's what the Predator Destructor is great at.

Just my $0.02 worth.

a Nice full LRC also means more pts in the same place which is not a good idea. 5 Termies+Libby is more than enough.

Orks have difficulties taking out Av13 at range so he should be able to play his vindicators in such a way that they can thin the horde for atleast 2 rounds. That along with MLs and plasma and the LRC should be enough.

however, if you intend to play your Razorbacks aggresivly then the TLAC is supperior to the TLLC in every aspect.

Why more points in one place = bad? Since KP, nobody has to worry about actual points values for victory considerations.

I have played against SM sooo many times I know them well (my club has 9/16 players with some MEQ army or other) despite that I haven't played them myself for a while. Since follow-up no longer allows for going into combat, after that first charge off the assault ramp I usually just decimate the terminators with massed small arms fire. Two extra bodies is always nice when I'm forcing saves on you with 10 bladestorming avengers plus extra catapult exarch, forcing you to fail on average 2.7777 saves. Mine only cost 152 points to kill off an average of half of your 460. My 304 would average wiping them all out in one shooting spree... terminator problem solved. 2 extra guys who can take it to them the next turn could possible tarpit the avengers and beat the mess out of them if they could survive to get a second charge.

2 squads of avengers, basic troops choice and not very expensive, means those 5 termies are shredded the turn after they drop. You got 1 kill, and a big dead 460 point sink, and an expensive libby on his own, or possibly dead too if saves go badly. Extra bodies are always good when doing the assault game. The Destructor pred 'downgrade' is still a viable addition to the army, and 2 extra guys doing the assault strike might make all the difference between a dead HQ, wiped out squad, or a remainder squad that can actually be useful still after it gets shot up. 1's happen, and 1 wound models that cost a bunch are a constant reminder, to me at least, of this fact.

Every time I have seen the Terminator assault squad it has been... drop off.. smash something... get killed. It's the same how we Eldar use our Fire dragons... drop off.. melt something... get killed. That's why we stock up on them. Despite the fluff, versus a lot of small arms fire Termies actually go down easier than people think.

Are you serious? How would 2 more termies change anything in your "the SM player is a complete moron" scenario besides loosing more 80pts?

How could two termies outside of a LR charge a unit with 18"range?

One could also do the other extreme, now you have deployed your fragile 300pt DAs in order to kill my 200pt Termies, next turn they will die to bolter fire and varios frag missiles...ad infinitum

I'd:

Dump the LC terminators they really won't help you against any targets that the Terminators should be facing off against. If you've got the Terminators stuck into a horde (the only place those LCs will help you more than the Hammernators);

a) You've made a tactical blunder already so in a tournament situation are likely to be losing no matter what.

b) Still won't do well even with the LCs, you'll just do less badly...

Dump the pred for a hybrid or take something else entirely. I think you do lack a little ranged AT so a hybrid with a las-plas on your HB Razorback would complement your army nicely and cover more gaps. However going 10 man with all razorbacks means should you roll annihilation you are well and truely screwed. You either have to keep you guys un-mobile and out in the open or split up for double KPs...

I consider revisting that part of your list and looking at rhinos and then getting more AT elsewhere. Also your deathstar (well it will be a deathstar if you dump the LC termies for Hammernators) is 600 points and not really supported by anything else in the list.

As for the bladestorming avengers here's the maths:

32 shots = 1.8 failed saves on average not 2.77!

So to kill of the Hammerantors that is 4 squads (608 points) to kill off 340 points (assume Libby is in toe and even then you are on average only causing .4 more wounds than the unit has, so this is far from a gaurantee) and then those 608 points are sat nicely in the open for violent reprisals to which they will die very quickly because they are made of paper.

Those calcs were done with the assumption that the termies were doomed something that is absolutly garantueed to be true, especially when the termie squad has a ld 10 hood *whistles*

Those calcs were done with the assumption that the termies were doomed something that is absolutly garantueed to be true, especially when the termie squad has a ld 10 hood *whistles*

In which case he's using a different Eldar codex to me 10 dire Avengers and Exarch and a Farseer with doom adds up to far more than 152 points in my codex...

not when you are using hyperbole to show how "bad" TH/SS termies are

not when you are using hyperbole to show how "bad" TH/SS termies are

Yeah his accurate and sensible example really did show how rubbish Hammernators are. I'll go chuck mine in the bin right now...

eNvY wrote:
Librarian - 140
- Terminator Armor, Storm Shield

Null Zone and Avenger are my Favorites

Terminator Squad - 460
- 2 Thunder Hammer + Storm Shield
- 3 Lightning Claws
- Land Raider Crusader w/ Multi-Melta

I like it I for one like a couple Lightning Claws cause you can't always pick and choose every combat. Getting tarpitted by a mob of Ork boyz sucks. The extra attack at initiative with rerolls to wound are nice for cutting down any MEQ and hordes.

Dreadnought - 125
- Assault Cannon, Heavy Flamer

This seems very out of place in your list. I would take the suggestions of the TL AC(s) or make it a melta dread in a drop pod or just get rid of it period and use the points somewhere else

Tactical Squad x10 - 265
- Meltagun, Plasma Cannon
- Sergeant w/ Combi-Melta
- Razorback w/ TL-Lascannon

Tactical Squad x10 - 255
- Meltagun, Plasma Cannon
- Razorback w/ TL-Lascannon

Tactical Squad x10 - 210
- Flamer, Missile Launcher
- Razorback w/ TL-Heavy Bolter

Combi-melta with the meltagun are golden

Vindicator - 115

Vindicator - 115

Predator - 165
- TL-Lascannon, Lascannon Sponsons

The only thing I like better than a Vindicator is two Vindicators. But I would drop the TL lascannon on the pred the cost of one TL shot is just outragous. I would either go Dakka pred or a Hybrid.

I like it I for one like a couple Lightning Claws cause you can't always pick and choose every combat. Getting tarpitted by a mob of Ork boyz sucks. The extra attack at initiative with rerolls to wound are nice for cutting down any MEQ and hordes.

Granted you can't pick and choose your fights all the time. But when you've hit your intended target you're happy to lose so that you can get 2-3 extra attacks that only hit on a 4+ should you come up against 30 boyz? Simply not worth the trade off.

Your Terminators will still not fair well against a mob of 30 boyz and now are also stuffed over a Nob bikers, other deathstars and MCs, all so you can kill what 1 extra boy (if you are lucky) per turn when you are tarpitted? So now your uber unit isn't uber anymore and not really good against anything other than small MEQ units (which you already have 2 Vindicators to deal with).

FlingitNow wrote:Granted you can't pick and choose your fights all the time. But when you've hit your intended target you're happy to lose so that you can get 2-3 extra attacks that only hit on a 4+ should you come up against 30 boyz? Simply not worth the trade off.

Your Terminators will still not fair well against a mob of 30 boyz and now are also stuffed over a Nob bikers, other deathstars and MCs, all so you can kill what 1 extra boy (if you are lucky) per turn when you are tarpitted? So now your uber unit isn't uber anymore and not really good against anything other than small MEQ units (which you already have 2 Vindicators to deal with).

I've mathhammer this for you before to prove how much of a different two claws can make so am not gunna do it again. But if you face my Ork list there is no "deathstar" unit I don't run Nob squads the only thing your gunna attack is my boyz

I've mathhammer this for you before to prove how much of a different two claws can make so am not gunna do it again. But if you face my Ork list there is no "deathstar" unit I don't run Nob squads the only thing your gunna attack is my boyz

Then I'll not be reliant on my Hammernators. Against such lists Assalut Terminators won't be a great choice no matter how you arm them. Against a list with another death star or with some hard hitting MCs your hybrid unit will lose.

I still don't see the value in making a unit fail at it's primary role so it can lose by less against targets you want to avoid anyway. You'll never convince me that is anefficient way to spend points.

FlingitNow wrote:

not when you are using hyperbole to show how "bad" TH/SS termies are

Yeah his accurate and sensible example really did show how rubbish Hammernators are. I'll go chuck mine in the bin right now...

Okay lets see: 30 shots, 2/3 hit, 1/2 wound, 1/6 fail a save... that equals, um yeah 1.66.. add in 4 more for the exarch, 5/6 hit, 1/2 wound, 1/6 fail a save =1.9444 total. Sorry I got my order of operations wrong (math in the middle of the night). And no I never implied that thunder termies are rubbish that's a bit of an overreaction. What I was implying is that when they get their initial shove in the Crusader, they are left standing open to a lot of unanswered shots that could, even from a mediocre output like a couple of avenger squads, be wiped without me even dedicating any heavier stuff to shoot at them. If only a couple more means having some that survive, they can hop back in their crusader and be a menace to something else on the next turn. They are good when they are stuck in, not when they are out in the open getting pinged to bits.

Okay lets see: 30 shots, 2/3 hit, 1/2 wound, 1/6 fail a save... that equals, um yeah 1.66.. add in 4 more for the exarch, 5/6 hit, 1/2 wound, 1/6 fail a save =1.9444 total. Sorry I got my order of operations wrong (math in the middle of the night). And no I never implied that thunder termies are rubbish that's a bit of an overreaction. What I was implying is that when they get their initial shove in the Crusader, they are left standing open to a lot of unanswered shots that could, even from a mediocre output like a couple of avenger squads, be wiped without me even dedicating any heavier stuff to shoot at them. If only a couple more means having some that survive, they can hop back in their crusader and be a menace to something else on the next turn. They are good when they are stuck in, not when they are out in the open getting pinged to bits.

It is 27 not 30 shots unless you DA unit number 11 (which it can't). You kill less than 2 on average and that might even be a wound on the Libby meaning you have literaly not damaged the unit at all to wipe it out you need to fire 4 such units at it. So yes you can wipe out the squad with 600+ points of bladestorming dire Avengers in 1 turn. But then you've got those Avengers out in the open and unable to shoot next turn (if they aare lucky enough to see it).

The thing is you start throwing heavy fire power at them and the 3+ invulnerable will mean you still struggle to cause many casualties. Weight of fire power is what you want to throw at them you want bladestorming DAs but aided by Guide and Doom and then you're starting to cause problems. That 1.88 wounds suddenly becomes 3.6 and with 2 units those Hammernators are starting to sweat.

Hammernators are ace but yes they aren't invincible and yes they can die (mine in general die like punks at the merest hit of bolter fire, though heavy fire power bounces harmlessly off them). Using them correctly gives you a huge advantage using them poorly and you're throwing a large amount of points away.