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I understand that the Doom of Malan'tai has been discussed at length. I've searched the forum here, but I couldn't find any discussion about this particular facet of its rules:

If the DoM's Spirit Leech ability is triggered, each enemy unit within 6" must take a Ld check on 3d6; for each point by which it fails the check, that unit loses one wound with no armor saves allowed.

The Spirit Leech ability is not a shooting attack.

Independent characters cannot be targeted by shooting attacks while joined to another unit, but they do not lose their status of being a unit unless they are accompanied by a retinue.

This means that independent characters must also take the Ld check required by the DoM, regardless of whether or not they have joined a unit.

Have I missed something in my analysis?

HarveyDent wrote:I understand that the Doom of Malan'tai has been discussed at length. I've searched the forum here, but I couldn't find any discussion about this particular facet of its rules:

If the DoM's Spirit Leech ability is triggered, each enemy unit within 6" must take a Ld check on 3d6; for each point by which it fails the check, that unit loses one wound with no armor saves allowed.

The Spirit Leech ability is not a shooting attack.

Independent characters cannot be targeted by shooting attacks while joined to another unit, but they do not lose their status of being a unit unless they are accompanied by a retinue.

This means that independent characters must also take the Ld check required by the DoM, regardless of whether or not they have joined a unit.

Have I missed something in my analysis?

No. They count as part of the unit while attached. The Whole unit (IC included) makes a SINGLE LD test.

HarveyDent wrote:
Independent characters cannot be targeted by shooting attacks while joined to another unit, but they do not lose their status of being a unit unless they are accompanied by a retinue.

Where did you get that idea?
They're part of any unit they're attached to. It's a single unit.

Gwar! wrote:No. They count as part of the unit while attached. The Whole unit (IC included) makes a SINGLE LD test.

is an independent character a unit? yes.

does he lose the status of 'unit' when joining another unit? no.

all he loses is the ability to be targeted.

the DoM's ability does not target. it just asks "is a unit within 6 inches?"

HarveyDent wrote:

Gwar! wrote:No. They count as part of the unit while attached. The Whole unit (IC included) makes a SINGLE LD test.

is an independent character a unit? yes.

does he lose the status of 'unit' when joining another unit? no.

all he loses is the ability to be targeted.

the DoM's ability does not target. it just asks "is a unit within 6 inches?"

Yes, is a unit within 6". While attached to a unit, the IC counts as part of that unit, which means that for all intents and purposes, the unit is a single unit.

if that's true, then why would a character that had joined a unit count as your single HQ unit in dawn of war deployment? you would be able to deploy as many HQ units as your FOC allowed, given that they were all joined to other units.

seriously, just because an IC is joined to a unit does not mean that he loses his 'unit' status.

the rules give him 'unit' status, and do not take it away. they just make him immune to targeting by shooting attacks.

Well it looks like this is going to be yet another case of "I Posted a Question but I'll ignore the answers I don't like."

I bid you a good day sir.

And for the record, it still counts as 2 units in DoW because the DoW rules say so, as do the deployment rules, as an HQ IC cannot join another unit until deployment.

you're not giving any rules justification for your point.

you are saying that he is no longer a unit...but there is nothing in the rules that says he is no longer a unit.

IC = UNIT. this is uncontested.

IC joins a unit. this means that he is now a unit that has joined another unit.

show me where it says he ceases to be a unit just because he joins another unit.

Even thought from a common sense point of view this sounds unreasonable, based purely on the wording of the rules, this probably deserves as much airtime as the argument that the Doom does indeed NOT have a 3++ save - a point which some take every opportunity to bring up.

Overall I dont think this would change the way I play but if this point is made also as an excercise to help GW tighten up rules and ambiguities then I think the discussion has merit.

you're not giving any rules justification for your point.

you are saying that he is no longer a unit...but there is nothing in the rules that says he is no longer a unit.

IC = UNIT. this is uncontested.

IC joins a unit. this means that he is now a unit that has joined another unit.

show me where it says he ceases to be a unit just because he joins another unit.

Follow the logic of your state to the conclusion you are essentialy saying they have to take 3 LD tests as as you are claiming:

Squad is a unit - 1 LD test
IC is a unit - 1 LD test
Squad + IC is still also a unit - 1 Ld test

Your also tryiong to claiming the IC can be effected by the power twice in 1 go as he's part of the squad so can have wounds allocated to him but then he also tests himself.

i'm not sure there are three separate entities there.

i am fairly certain that there are at least 2. one of which is the IC himself. the second of which is either (IC+UNIT) OR (UNIT) ...but not both.

i'm not sure if you could say the conglomerate exists as a new entity... but you might be right.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

saryrn wrote:
Overall I dont think this would change the way I play but if this point is made also as an excercise to help GW tighten up rules and ambiguities then I think the discussion has merit.

exactly. i mean, practically speaking, this is just a shooting attack that doesn't happen exactly the same way shooting works.

by the RAW, for the sake of consistency, you pretty much have to nix an IC's 'unit' status while he's joined to another unit... which is what the rules try but fail to do. (you can tell they want him to be a unit again in close combat).

i am fairly certain that there are at least 2. one of which is the IC himself. the second of which is either (IC+UNIT) OR (UNIT) ...but not both.

We know that the IC + Unit is an entity as the iC rules tell us they are treated as one unit. IF the IC remains a seperate entity then the unit must also do so giving you the 3 seperate entities.

Sorry but you are trying to rules lawyer in an advantage that no one would let you use (except a newbie, in which case why bother trying to rules lawyer why not just outright cheat) and isn't even following the RaW (that IC and squad are 1 unit).

No one is going to agree that a unit is effected twice by spirit leech.

This thread is full of fail.

IC joins a unit, he becomes part of the unit. They use his leadership typically to make tests. This is very common.

As noted, the IC rules specify that when a character joins a unit, he functions as part of that unit until he leaves it, except for certain specified exceptions. Such as allocation of close combat attacks. If the unit is targeted or affected by something (be it a vehicle exploding within range, or Doom, or whatever), the IC is affected as just another model in the unit.

+1 to it is one unit for the purposes of testing. If this were not the case then all things that cause a test would need to have two tests and you come into a whole new can of worms.

IC and Unit are fired on. Unit takes 25% causualties and fails morale test. IC is a "seperate unit" so it doesn't break. Unit falls back 12", but IC is still part of the unit since IC joining and leaving a unit take place in movement phase. Unit can move out of 2" coherency since it's an illegal move. Game breaks and board gets sucked into the void.