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Ok I've got a trygon which can charge and comes into base contact with two tanks - can it do multiple assault because it's base comes into contact with both tanks?

I've been told in the past it cannot because the first sentence says the word "models" however if it said "model" it wouldn't make sense grammar wise.

After reading it I cannot see why a single model cannot do multiple assaults.

mercer wrote:Ok I've got a trygon which can charge and comes into base contact with two tanks - can it do multiple assault because it's base comes into contact with both tanks?

I've been told in the past it cannot because the first sentence says the word "models" however if it said "model" it wouldn't make sense grammar wise.

After reading it I cannot see why a single model cannot do multiple assaults.

A Single model cannot do multiple assaults because the first model in the assaulting unit MUST assault the Target unit, not "The target unit and another unit."

Only the 2nd and subsequent models in a unit may assault a 2nd unit, which can never happen with a Unit of 1 model.

It really is that simple.

I am no expert but I think for most units you have to allocate all your attacks to 1 target you get to choose if there are more than 1 possible target unit. you can't say, give 2/5 attacks to 1 unit and the other 3/5 attacks to a different unit. Whether its a squad or a tank. ICs are an exception who just do their hits at whatever is in base contact and only get hit by them in return. I am not familiar with the trygon, is it an IC? That would seem like it makes all the difference. Someone more geektastic please fill me in if I'm wrong about this, I'm still confused from edition crossover so I may be way off. Enlighten us because that's a good question IMO, just one that has never come up in any of my games.

You may indeed split your attacks if engaged with multiple models, though this is not the question the OP was asking.

Gwar! wrote:

mercer wrote:Ok I've got a trygon which can charge and comes into base contact with two tanks - can it do multiple assault because it's base comes into contact with both tanks?

I've been told in the past it cannot because the first sentence says the word "models" however if it said "model" it wouldn't make sense grammar wise.

After reading it I cannot see why a single model cannot do multiple assaults.

A Single model cannot do multiple assaults because the first model in the assaulting unit MUST assault the Target unit, not "The target unit and another unit."

Only the 2nd and subsequent models in a unit may assault a 2nd unit, which can never happen with a Unit of 1 model.

It really is that simple.

Thanks Gwar

deleted due to redundancy

Not discounting Gawr!'s answer, but considering the enormous base a trygon comes with, I'd let you do it, seeing as it might not be possible to assault tank#1, without coming into contact with tank #2, because there's this:

There was a cheesy tactic (much discussed on the boards on whether its legal), sometimes attempted, of having two units checker boarded together:
X= Unit of Dire Avengers
O= Unit of Scorpions

XOXOXOXOXO
OXOXOXOXOX

... the "trick" was that this "not allowed to come within one inch of another unit" was exploited to disallow *any* assault, as both units ... protected each other with that 1 inch.

On the much larger scale of a single Trygon and some tanks ... Gwar! may have it RaW, but I think you'd be okay to split attacks, being in b2b with both vehicles, as the one rule exists allowing a model to split its attacks between units, if it were in b2b with 2 separate units.

The crux being allowed to come in b2b with 2 models at the same time.

Brothererekose wrote:Not discounting Gawr!'s answer, considering the enormous base a trygon comes with, I'd let you do it, seeing as it might not be possible to assault tank#1, without coming into contact with tank #2.

Also, there's this:
There was a cheesy tactic, sometimes attempted of having two units checker boarded together; the "trick" was that this "not allowed to come within one inch of another unit" was exploited to disallow *any* assault, as both units ... protected each other.

The 1" rule is ignored in the assault phase, so he could have assaulted unit A, and come within 1" of Unit B just fine.

recently in a game, I assaulted a dreadnaught with a Trygon Prime and the base actually touched the base of a 2nd dread that standing near the first. By the rules, we agreed that he had assaulted both dreads since he was in base to base with both units.

Doesn't this:

Gwar! wrote:The 1" rule is ignored in the assault phase, so he could have assaulted unit A, and come within 1" of Unit B just fine.

Contradict that?

Gwar! wrote:A Single model cannot do multiple assaults because the first model in the assaulting unit MUST assault the Target unit, not "The target unit and another unit."
Only the 2nd and subsequent models in a unit may assault a 2nd unit, which can never happen with a Unit of 1 model.
It really is that simple.

Brothererekose wrote:Doesn't this:

Gwar! wrote:The 1" rule is ignored in the assault phase, so he could have assaulted unit A, and come within 1" of Unit B just fine.

Contradict that?

Gwar! wrote:A Single model cannot do multiple assaults because the first model in the assaulting unit MUST assault the Target unit, not "The target unit and another unit."
Only the 2nd and subsequent models in a unit may assault a 2nd unit, which can never happen with a Unit of 1 model.
It really is that simple.

No, it doesn't. You can come within 1" of another unit, you just cannot get into BTB with a 2nd unit with the 1st model in an assaulting unit.

Being within 1" does not lock you in combat. Only being in BTB does.

gannam wrote:recently in a game, I assaulted a dreadnaught with a Trygon Prime and the base actually touched the base of a 2nd dread that standing near the first. By the rules, we agreed that he had assaulted both dreads since he was in base to base with both units.

Well you did it wrong, plain and simple! The Trygon was not permitted to be in BTB with the 2nd Dreadnought at all.

Gwar! wrote:No, it doesn't. You can come within 1" of another unit, you just cannot get into BTB with a 2nd unit with the 1st model in an assaulting unit.

Being within 1" does not lock you in combat. Only being in BTB does.

Ah, got it.

Excuse me if this is nothing, but what if (big if) the shortest possible route to the target unit brought you into contact with the second unit?

Boost One wrote:Excuse me if this is nothing, but what if (big if) the shortest possible route to the target unit brought you into contact with the second unit?

You instead take a slightly longer possible route as to make a legal assault, as the "shortest possible route" isn't actually the shortest possible route for a legal assault.

Neat

Gwar! wrote:

Boost One wrote:Excuse me if this is nothing, but what if (big if) the shortest possible route to the target unit brought you into contact with the second unit?

You instead take a slightly longer possible route as to make a legal assault, as the "shortest possible route" isn't actually the shortest possible route for a legal assault.

Doesn't it say in the book that you have to move in a straight line when assaulting? So if your straight line makes your first model contact another unit instead of the intended one, in theory wouldn't you then assault that unit instead of the intended?

Kevin949 wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Boost One wrote:Excuse me if this is nothing, but what if (big if) the shortest possible route to the target unit brought you into contact with the second unit?

You instead take a slightly longer possible route as to make a legal assault, as the "shortest possible route" isn't actually the shortest possible route for a legal assault.

Doesn't it say in the book that you have to move in a straight line when assaulting? So if your straight line makes your first model contact another unit instead of the intended one, in theory wouldn't you then assault that unit instead of the intended?

No, the rulebook says nothing of the sort. It actually says

The model selected must be the one closest to the enemy (going around impassable terrain, friendly models and enemy models in units not being assaulted). Move the model into contact with the nearest enemy model in the unit being assaulted, using the shortest possible route.

Note the lack of permission to assault a 2nd unit and, in fact, a very explicit rule to STAY AWAY FROM MODELS NOT BEING ASSAULTED!

Also note that it would be DEAD impossible to position the MC in a way where the shortest route to one model puts it into base contact with another upon arrival.

Gwar! wrote:No, the rulebook says nothing of the sort. It actually says

The model selected must be the one closest to the enemy (going around impassable terrain, friendly models and enemy models in units not being assaulted). Move the model into contact with the nearest enemy model in the unit being assaulted, using the shortest possible route.

Note the lack of permission to assault a 2nd unit and, in fact, a very explicit rule to STAY AWAY FROM MODELS NOT BEING ASSAULTED!

Ah. Hm, I wonder what my buddy was talking about then with moving in a straight line and running into another squad and such.

Dang it, that's it, I'm getting a rulebook today! About frikken time.

Kevin949 wrote:

Gwar! wrote:No, the rulebook says nothing of the sort. It actually says

The model selected must be the one closest to the enemy (going around impassable terrain, friendly models and enemy models in units not being assaulted). Move the model into contact with the nearest enemy model in the unit being assaulted, using the shortest possible route.

Note the lack of permission to assault a 2nd unit and, in fact, a very explicit rule to STAY AWAY FROM MODELS NOT BEING ASSAULTED!

Ah. Hm, I wonder what my buddy was talking about then with moving in a straight line and running into another squad and such.

Dang it, that's it, I'm getting a rulebook today! About frikken time.

Don't have my rule book in front of me but I believe it's the second and subsequent models in the assaulting unit that will have the potential to contact another unit thus causing a 'multiple assault'.

zeshin wrote:Don't have my rule book in front of me but I believe it's the second and subsequent models in the assaulting unit that will have the potential to contact another unit thus causing a 'multiple assault'.

Ah, that was probably it. Interesting how you can "go around" enemy units if you want to assault but then there is the rule that models can never through other models or some such thing. All I remember is that rule made it so I couldn't get my lord into CC range when he was attached to an immortal squad because of where they were positioned there was no way for him to move without bypassing everyone packed in in front of him. *Shrug* Oh well. Rule book ordered!

Well, a model can only do one assault, however, if you can get into base to base contact with both tanks you'll be able to split your attacks amongst the two tanks (or 3 if thats possible)

It should be quite possible to get into btb with two separate models with one large based MC. picture the following:


....a...b......MMM

If the MC (MMM) assaults model a, then the shortest route to model a will have it skimming around the edge of model b.


Now it all comes down to whether or not avoiding impassable terrain means entering or touching. If it menas entering then MMM could touch the edge of model b as it goes around (and in fact would be required to do so for a shortest path). Model b is impassable terrain, so MMM cant enter/ move over model b.

But being in btb isnt the same as entering, so we have a grey area.

I personally would be in favor of MMM not being to be allowed to actually be considered in btb (as it would make life simpler for the combats) but Im not certain here.


Being in btb means that the distance from MMM to b is zero....but the distance being zero also means that MMM didnt actually enter impassable terrain, its just touching it. And the rules do say models cant move into or across impassable terrain. But touching seems to be allowed (no inappropriate touching pls however, lets keep this PG )

So it may be possible to end up in btb contact with models that werent assaulted, simply because being in any assault move removes the restriction of moving within 1" of enemy models.


At the very least it would suggest that if model b were a dreadnought it would be able to attack MMM....

Sliggoth

Sliggoth wrote: If the MC (MMM) assaults model a, then the shortest route to model a will have it skimming around the edge of model b.

Skimming around, but not touching... because the rules specifically forbid that.

Ahh, right; there is the added rule about not being able to move into btb with a unit that they arent assaulting. So the 1" rule goes away but there is the added new rule of no btb with others, until the first model has moved. So that does cover it airtight.


Sliggoth