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If a farseer casts fortune/guide on a unit with an independant character in it, and that character leaves the unit in the same turn - does he get to keep the fortune/guide effect?

Madog wrote:If a farseer casts fortune/guide on a unit with an independant character in it, and that character leaves the unit in the same turn - does he get to keep the fortune/guide effect?

Yes. Fortune/Guide are cast on the unit, which the IC is part of when it was cast. If he leaves later on, he still benefits as he was part of the unit at the time the power was Cast.

No. Both Fortune and Guide affect a unit, not every model within the unit. As long as an IC is part of an affected unit he also benefit from the effects but as soon as he leaves he is no longer part of the unit that the power was cast on.

Webbe wrote:No. Both Fortune and Guide affect a unit, not every model within the unit. As long as an IC is part of an affected unit he also benefit from the effects but as soon as he leaves he is no longer part of the unit that the power was cast on.

Sorry, but I disagree. The IC is part of the unit when the power was cast, so benefits even if he stops being part of the unit.

By your logic I could claim that the IC in fact only benefits and the unit stops if he leaves.

However, I will admit that it is not as clear as I first thought, and for that I apologise!

No need to apologise. I agree it's not clear.

But my logic holds I believe. It's always the IC that joins the unit and becomes part of it, never the other way around.
Still I guess you can argue either way.
You could even argue that since it was the combined unit Unit XY consisting of Unit X and IC Y that was affected and when IC Y leaves Unit XY cease to be and therefore noone is any longer affected.

Eldar codex, pg28, Fortune heading;
"Nominate one Eldar unit with a model within 6" [...]"

Rulebook, pg49, Shooting at independant characters heading;
"Independant characters that have joined a unit are considered part of that unit [...]"


You pick one unit to confer guide/fortune upon. That unit, and the IC that is considered a part of it, benefit from the affects of guide/fortune. If the IC leaves it is no longer considered part of the unit that guide/fortune was conferred to.

At no point did the IC stop being a unit in it's own right by strict RaW (joining and becoming part of another unit did not remove the IC's own unit, it just bestowed certain restrictions upon it). As the IC's unit never had guide/fortune cast upon it, it does not benefit from these powers after leaving the unit they were cast upon.

As close to strict RaW as I can get it, unless I'm missing something!

I have always played as Rube has broken it down.

Rube wrote:Eldar codex, pg28, Fortune heading;
"Nominate one Eldar unit with a model within 6" [...]"

Rulebook, pg49, Shooting at independant characters heading;
"Independant characters that have joined a unit are considered part of that unit [...]"


You pick one unit to confer guide/fortune upon. That unit, and the IC that is considered a part of it, benefit from the affects of guide/fortune. If the IC leaves it is no longer considered part of the unit that guide/fortune was conferred to.

At no point did the IC stop being a unit in it's own right by strict RaW (joining and becoming part of another unit did not remove the IC's own unit, it just bestowed certain restrictions upon it). As the IC's unit never had guide/fortune cast upon it, it does not benefit from these powers after leaving the unit they were cast upon.

As close to strict RaW as I can get it, unless I'm missing something!

At our FLGS and at most tournaments around here it is played the other way, however. The IC -is- considered, for all intents and purposes, to be a part of the unit. The Eldar powers state that the -unit- targeted has the effects until the start of the next Eldar turn. So, the powers are cast at the start of the turn. It is cast on the unit of Banshees (of which Eldrad and Jain Zar are a part). The Banshees and Jain Zar leave Eldrad behind. This doesn't stop the powers from working. Why? Because the restrictions (or lack thereof) on the powers happen at the beginning of the turn. At the beginning of the next turn, he'd have to cast Fortune twice, but when the power was cast it affected both "units" at once.

When the power is cast, it's not two units in one, it's on one unit, per the IC rules. This happens at the beginning of the turn and everyone with the power cast on them is affected until the beginning of the next turn. If you're going to argue that the IC would lose it when he leaves the unit, then the argument would stand that the IC doesn't get it when he is a part of the unit either. Or, that I would have to cast Fortune on a single unit twice to get the effects for both Eldrad and the Banshees. Or, that I have to determine which unit I'm casting it on at the beginning of the turn, even when the unit is one. You must nominate a "unit". You cannot nominate the IC without affecting the attached squad and vice versa. So, how do I give it to Eldrad, and then not to the Banshees, so that Eldrad will have it when he leaves the unit? You can't?

It's a lot like the Tyranid rule for Termagaunts ruled in the INAT:

TYR.52C.01 – Q: When exactly does a Termagant unit check to see if they are within 6" of a Tervigon to benefit from the „Counter-Attack‟ ability he provides?
A: Check range at the start of each assault phase. Valid Termagant units found to be within range benefit for the entire phase [clarification].

It's all about when the effect takes place. The effect takes place at the beginning of the turn, so it affects whoever it is cast upon. It was cast upon a unit and two IC's (which are considered a part of the unit), therefore, the IC's still have it for the remainder of the turn, as it was cast upon them, just like it was cast upon the unit they were with.

I personally have always played it as the targetof the power keeps it. if I want the IC to have fortune when it break off I just specify that I'm casting on the IC in the unit. While the IC sticks with that unit they both get the benefit and when they break off the IC gets it.

It would be nice if this was clarified and preferably both keep

BlueDagger wrote:I personally have always played it as the targetof the power keeps it. if I want the IC to have fortune when it break off I just specify that I'm casting on the IC in the unit. While the IC sticks with that unit they both get the benefit and when they break off the IC gets it.

It would be nice if this was clarified and preferably both keep

So, if the IC in the unit (which is a part of the unit) is killed, the entire unit loses the effects of the powers, even though they were affected as a unit and until the beginning of the next turn?

And if this is the case, then this thread about the Doom of Malantai has merit:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/293436.page

To paraphrase: the basis is that if the Doom of Malantai affects "units" within a 6" radius. If an IC never loses it's "unit" status (as is being implyed here) then the Doom's power affects both the unit, the IC and then the two as a whole, just like it would as if IC had been detached. The unit is one. It is affected as one when the effects take place.

Correct if you play it as the count as separates for the sake of the power. The only time I ever do that is if I KNOW I'm separating it off for some reason and the IC will need. Overall the situation almost never comes up for me since I don't separate off my ICs.

I sort of agree, the unit keeps the power. What about CC? Since the IC is not part of the unit for CC, are his saves in CC Fortuned?

Homer

The IC is only considered to be not part of the unit for determining who can fight.. For all other purposes he is still part of the unit.

RAW technically no, but if you try to pull that on an Eldar player they'd prob call you TFG lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

willydstyle wrote:The IC is only considered to be not part of the unit for determining who can fight.. For all other purposes he is still part of the unit.

Correction, he is considered a completely separate unit as if it was an additional unit in a multi-assault. They rejoin for the assault results. Since they are separated during the wound and saves portion he is RAW a separate unit for the sake of fortune, though I know of not a single soul that plays it that way.

Easiest way of doing it-tell your opponent to roll a dice,1 2 3 he benefits from it, 4 5 6 he doesn't

BlueDagger wrote:RAW technically no, but if you try to pull that on an Eldar player they'd prob call you TFG lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

willydstyle wrote:The IC is only considered to be not part of the unit for determining who can fight.. For all other purposes he is still part of the unit.

Correction, he is considered a completely separate unit as if it was an additional unit in a multi-assault. They rejoin for the assault results. Since they are separated during the wound and saves portion he is RAW a separate unit for the sake of fortune, though I know of not a single soul that plays it that way.

I disagree entirely. Per the IC rules, he functions as part of the unit in general until he leaves it. The rules for allocating/resolving attacks in close combat are a specific exception to those general rules, and apply only during that specific case. The character still never “leaves” or “rejoins” the unit during the combat.

As the IC functions as part of the unit except where otherwise specified, the Doom of M cannot affect him individually (just as part of his unit) while he is joined, and he benefits from Fortune cast on the unit, again as long as he is joined to it.

Mannahnin wrote:

BlueDagger wrote:RAW technically no, but if you try to pull that on an Eldar player they'd prob call you TFG lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

willydstyle wrote:The IC is only considered to be not part of the unit for determining who can fight.. For all other purposes he is still part of the unit.

Correction, he is considered a completely separate unit as if it was an additional unit in a multi-assault. They rejoin for the assault results. Since they are separated during the wound and saves portion he is RAW a separate unit for the sake of fortune, though I know of not a single soul that plays it that way.

I disagree entirely. Per the IC rules, he functions as part of the unit in general until he leaves it. The rules for allocating/resolving attacks in close combat are a specific exception to those general rules, and apply only during that specific case. The character still never “leaves” or “rejoins” the unit during the combat.

As the IC functions as part of the unit except where otherwise specified, the Doom of M cannot affect him individually (just as part of his unit) while he is joined, and he benefits from Fortune cast on the unit, again as long as he is joined to it.

So, once he's joined the unit -after- Fortune has been cast on it, he gains it as well, even though it was never cast on him?