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Last night be and a friend were playing a friendly game. His two predators were tearing up my speed freaks at range. Not to mention his other anti ork units.

Playing bikers for the first time i took warboss and 7 bikes alot with my trukks. Learned that a painboy is a must for my playstyle.

Question:
My 4 remaining biker nobs assaulted a predator that didnt move. So i hit automatically. 2 of the nob bikers had power klaws. Due to the shear number of wounds on the tank i rolled a "6" which is a given with automatic hits. So....the vehicle exploded in a fiery mess. I rolled a 4" for the explosion (even if i rolled a 1" for explosions wouldnt CC assaulting units still be caught in explosion?!). missed all my 6+ saves. lost about 200points of nobs for a 150+ point predator. Was not worth it in hindsight. Did i play the rules correctly however flawed my strategy may have been.

Dang shooty marines.

arcadepcnut wrote:Last night be and a friend were playing a friendly game. His two predators were tearing up my speed freaks at range. Not to mention his other anti ork units.

Playing bikers for the first time i took warboss and 7 bikes alot with my trukks. Learned that a painboy is a must for my playstyle.

Question:
My 4 remaining biker nobs assaulted a predator that didnt move. So i hit automatically. 2 of the nob bikers had power klaws. Due to the shear number of wounds on the tank i rolled a "6" which is a given with automatic hits. So....the vehicle exploded in a fiery mess. I rolled a 4" for the explosion (even if i rolled a 1" for explosions wouldnt CC assaulting units still be caught in explosion?!). missed all my 6+ saves. lost about 200points of nobs for a 150+ point predator. Was not worth it in hindsight. Did i play the rules correctly however flawed my strategy may have been.

Dang shooty marines.

Did you roll to wound,

Its only a strength 3 hit.

arcadepcnut wrote:Last night be and a friend were playing a friendly game. His two predators were tearing up my speed freaks at range. Not to mention his other anti ork units.

Playing bikers for the first time i took warboss and 7 bikes alot with my trukks. Learned that a painboy is a must for my playstyle.

Question:
My 4 remaining biker nobs assaulted a predator that didnt move. So i hit automatically. 2 of the nob bikers had power klaws. Due to the shear number of wounds on the tank i rolled a "6" which is a given with automatic hits. So....the vehicle exploded in a fiery mess. I rolled a 4" for the explosion (even if i rolled a 1" for explosions wouldnt CC assaulting units still be caught in explosion?!). missed all my 6+ saves. lost about 200points of nobs for a 150+ point predator. Was not worth it in hindsight. Did i play the rules correctly however flawed my strategy may have been.

Dang shooty marines.

Well, you made a few mistakes here.

Firstly, you should have rolled to wound. An Explosion is S3, so it would have needed 6+ to wound your nobs.

Secondly, Biker nobs have a 4+ Armour save, and a 4+ Cover save.

Thirdly, they have 2 wounds each.

Fourthly, yes, Painboys are awesome.

no cover saves as it isn't a shooting attack.

I'm pretty sure you still get a cover save from explosions, I don't see why you wouldnt.

cover can only be taken against shooting attacks, the explosion is never defined as a shooting attack.

there are psychic powers that do damage, but aren't shooting attacks. the Doom of Malantai's soul drain is an example(this is what caused the big controversy about models in transports and no cover saves)

RAW: no cover saves and it makes sense as well. the tank that you are right next to just exploded, covering the area in shrapnel and/or radiation. a smoke cloud isn't going to stop that.

Well like what if you are in cover, shoot a tank and it blows up? No cover or cover?

RAW: no cover.

if you are in BtB and the tank blows there can't be anything in the way.

Good to know. Thank you

Grey Templar wrote:cover can only be taken against shooting attacks, the explosion is never defined as a shooting attack.

Did you just make this up? The only relevant rule I can find is that cover saves do not apply in close combat.

The game is permisive based. you have to be specifically told you may do something to be able to do it.

on page 61 under Destroyed-explodes.

"...Flaming debris is scattered D6" from the vehicle and models in range suffor a Str3 AP- hit. the vehicle is removed...."

it doesn't say that it is a shooting attack.


Cover is described in the shooting section on page 21.

"When any part of the models body(as defined on page 16) is obscured from the point of view of the firer, the target model is in cover"

No weapons are being fired when a vehicle explodes. no to hit roll is made. therefore you can't recieve cover.

By this definition shooting attacks that auto hit ignore cover saves as well.


ironicly, on page 67 when describing the effects on passengers. it does say it counts as a shooting attack, but only to the models riding the vehicle. hmmmm, Interesting.

Grey Templar wrote:The game is permisive based. you have to be specifically told you may do something to be able to do it.

You are specifically told you can take saves against wounds.

Grey Templar wrote:
No weapons are being fired when a vehicle explodes. no to hit roll is made. therefore you can't recieve cover.

You're sort of correct. You would not receive cover from intervening units or terrain. However, if you are in area terrain or you have some special ability that gives a cover save, then you already have a cover save and can take it against the explosion.

Grey Templar wrote:
By this definition shooting attacks that auto hit ignore cover saves as well.

Which shows that your definition is flawed.

Gwar! wrote:

arcadepcnut wrote:Last night be and a friend were playing a friendly game. His two predators were tearing up my speed freaks at range. Not to mention his other anti ork units.

Playing bikers for the first time i took warboss and 7 bikes alot with my trukks. Learned that a painboy is a must for my playstyle.

Question:
My 4 remaining biker nobs assaulted a predator that didnt move. So i hit automatically. 2 of the nob bikers had power klaws. Due to the shear number of wounds on the tank i rolled a "6" which is a given with automatic hits. So....the vehicle exploded in a fiery mess. I rolled a 4" for the explosion (even if i rolled a 1" for explosions wouldnt CC assaulting units still be caught in explosion?!). missed all my 6+ saves. lost about 200points of nobs for a 150+ point predator. Was not worth it in hindsight. Did i play the rules correctly however flawed my strategy may have been.

Dang shooty marines.

Well, you made a few mistakes here.

Firstly, you should have rolled to wound. An Explosion is S3, so it would have needed 6+ to wound your nobs.

Secondly, Biker nobs have a 4+ Armour save, and a 4+ Cover save.

Thirdly, they have 2 wounds each.

Fourthly, yes, Painboys are awesome.

Great thanks for the answers. i did roll to wound. 1 dice for each mob effected by the blast correct? But I rolled on T4 instead of the bikes T% that i forgot about. Also is there any need to even roll any dice for the D6" inches explosions since you are melee?

I did not however take a 4+ save cause stupid me thought their only 4+ save was the cover save and i knew i didnt get the cover save. So i did the standard 6+ ork save and missed it.

I do realize they have two wounds each but i had previously assigned them 1 wound each from and earlier battle and forgot to state that.

So my messes aside it is still seems pretty risky to assault to vehicle with alot of attacks because the more attacks that land the higher risk of explosion. With regular boys this could be alot worse as lower T and low save as well as the number of dice for the explosion.

This post may be better suited for the tactics section but,

Yes I play daemons and I usually try to avoid CC vehicles because explosions suck. Your best bet is to take some Defkoptas and fit em up for tank hunting. Other than that a lucky shot from a boy with a rokkit launcha can also do some damage.

Another thing that isn't completely clear. Did you resolve the regular Nob attacks first, before the Power Klaws? Regular nobs strike first since you still resolve in Initiative order and Klaws strike at I1.

Because if you happen to kill the Pred before your Klaws strike, there's less of a chance of blowing it up and more of a chance of just Wrecking it instead of blowing it up and thus no explosion.

arcadepcnut wrote:
Great thanks for the answers. i did roll to wound. 1 dice for each mob effected by the blast correct? But I rolled on T4 instead of the bikes T% that i forgot about. Also is there any need to even roll any dice for the D6" inches explosions since you are melee?

One dice for each model - not each mob.

thebetter1 wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:The game is permisive based. you have to be specifically told you may do something to be able to do it.

You are specifically told you can take saves against wounds.

Grey Templar wrote:
No weapons are being fired when a vehicle explodes. no to hit roll is made. therefore you can't recieve cover.

You're sort of correct. You would not receive cover from intervening units or terrain. However, if you are in area terrain or you have some special ability that gives a cover save, then you already have a cover save and can take it against the explosion.

Grey Templar wrote:
By this definition shooting attacks that auto hit ignore cover saves as well.

Which shows that your definition is flawed.

A lot of what both of you are saying doesn't make much sense. If you commit to saying that you can take a cover save from an explosion, then you would have to agree with all the cover saving rules including intervening terrain and units; no special ability would be needed.

Since there is no firer, there is no target as is required by the cover rules, so that side of it wins out rather clearly if you take the "Treated just like hits from shooting" to mean that "Act as if the exploding vehicle is shooting at the units within X inches". I, however, do not. Cover for intervening models is quite clearly described in the guidebook and thus units within X inches behind intervening models would not get the 4+ from that section, however, the interesting paragraph is the first one under "Cover saves"

COVER SAVES
A position in cover shields troops against flying debris
and enemy shots, enabling them to get their heads
down or crawl amongst the rocks and (hopefully) avoid
harm. Because of this, units in or behind cover receive
a cover saving throw. The great thing about cover
saving throws is that they are not affected by the
Armour Piercing value of the attacking weapon, so
units in cover will normally get a saving throw
regardless of what’s firing at them.

But, as I said earlier, both of you are off in some ways, just to espouse my position on this, I think:

When are models in Cover?
When any part of the target model’s body (as defined
on page 16) is obscured from the point of view of the
firer, the target model is in cover. This is intentionally
generous, and it represents the fact that the warrior,
unlike the model, will be actively trying to take cover
(as well as the smoke, explosions and flying debris that
are mercifully absent from our tabletop battlefields).

is quite clear. Explosions are part of the cover section... Now determining how much of a unit is in cover and determining which save to give would be the hard part.

visavismeyou wrote:
A lot of what both of you are saying doesn't make much sense. If you commit to saying that you can take a cover save from an explosion, then you would have to agree with all the cover saving rules including intervening terrain and units; no special ability would be needed.

No, I would not have to agree with that. You are saying that it is impossible to take a cover save unless you are obscured from the view of the firer. See the area terrain rules and the Ork Kustom Force Field.

Basically, it is impossible to get a cover save from an explosion. It is possible to already have a cover save from a different source, which would be able to be taken as normal.

arcadepcnut wrote:I do realize they have two wounds each but i had previously assigned them 1 wound each from and earlier battle and forgot to state that.

When you assign wounds to multi-wound units, you must remove whole models. So, you should not have had so many models in the fight to begin with.

UltraPrime wrote:

arcadepcnut wrote:I do realize they have two wounds each but i had previously assigned them 1 wound each from and earlier battle and forgot to state that.

When you assign wounds to multi-wound units, you must remove whole models. So, you should not have had so many models in the fight to begin with.

Unless of course they are outfitted differently in which case the wound allocation rules would certainly allow for several nob bikers with one wound each.

UltraPrime wrote:

arcadepcnut wrote:I do realize they have two wounds each but i had previously assigned them 1 wound each from and earlier battle and forgot to state that.

When you assign wounds to multi-wound units, you must remove whole models. So, you should not have had so many models in the fight to begin with.

No - when you assign unsaved wounds to the *group* of like models in a multiwound unit you *must* assign them to wounded models first.

So if every *group* is composed of 1 model, as happens with most nobbiker units, then you can easily have lots with 1 wound each.

arcadepcnut wrote:
So my messes aside it is still seems pretty risky to assault to vehicle with alot of attacks because the more attacks that land the higher risk of explosion.

Not THAT risky, especially with decent nobs. Wounding on a 6+ followed by a 4+ save followed by 4+ FNP... even if all 10 nobs are in range you average (10/6/2/2)=0.4 total wounds, and that's on multiwound models.

On boyz it can be significantly worse, but it's still nothing crippling unless the entire mob manages to pile into it.
But that's what boarding planks, rollas, lootas, TL rokkits, and so on are for.

UltraPrime wrote:
When you assign wounds to multi-wound units, you must remove whole models. So, you should not have had so many models in the fight to begin with.

I'll second Krak's post, it's entirely possible to legally spread wounds across a nob squad. It's also an extremely common practice to do so, in this unit's case.

Yes, I agree. But that was not impression given. He stated he had assigned 1 wound to each model, not that it had randomly happened (what would be the chances of that happening?).

UltraPrime wrote:Yes, I agree. But that was not impression given. He stated he had assigned 1 wound to each model, not that it had randomly happened (what would be the chances of that happening?).

You're allowed to assign them that way. All you have to do is equip the nobs differently.
I believe you're thinking of the next step, which is after both assigning wounds and taking saves. Unsaved wounds within a wound group must remove models if possible, that's true.

Unless you're taking piles of wounds at once, it's perfectly reasonable to have a single wound on each nob before any die.

Forgive me if I misunderstand, but one of the arguments listed (I'm avoiding the whole "is it as shooting attack?" thing) reads "as you are next to the tank, there is no intervening terrain, you cannot have a cover save". If the unit is a large squad and most of the models did not reach the tank, the unit would be in cover, yes?

UltraPrime wrote:Yes, I agree. But that was not impression given. He stated he had assigned 1 wound to each model, not that it had randomly happened (what would be the chances of that happening?).

Quite high with nobs, as you can assign difficult to save wounds equally amongst the unit to keep the unit alive as long as possible.

Quite a few lists have 8 of 10 nobs left, all on one wound.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Boost - no, as a unit cannot generate cover from itself.

Scott-S6 wrote:

arcadepcnut wrote:
Great thanks for the answers. i did roll to wound. 1 dice for each mob effected by the blast correct? But I rolled on T4 instead of the bikes T% that i forgot about. Also is there any need to even roll any dice for the D6" inches explosions since you are melee?

One dice for each model - not each mob.

Thanks i did do that. I used the word "mob" to mean one model. its world of warcraft terms. sorry. im new back to 40k and using wrong terminology.

Boost One wrote:Forgive me if I misunderstand, but one of the arguments listed (I'm avoiding the whole "is it as shooting attack?" thing) reads "as you are next to the tank, there is no intervening terrain, you cannot have a cover save". If the unit is a large squad and most of the models did not reach the tank, the unit would be in cover, yes?

ummmmm, no

a unit can't give cover to its own members.



and yes you do still need to roll the D6 for how far the explosion goes. naturally the models in BtB will be hit, but models that are further away may not be.

the only reason you wouldn't need to roll is if there were no non-vehicle models within 6" as the explosion obviously can't hurt vehicles and there are no models in range that could get hurt.