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Was browsing a thread a few minutes ago that stated even if you block Mephiston from casting Wings of Sanguinis with a Psychic Hood that since its not a shooting attack it can be recasted as many times per turn as he is allowed to cast. This ruling is also backed up with examples in the Chaos Space Marine FAQ by GW, allowing abilties like Warp Time to be casted multiple times since its not a shooting attack. This leads me to the question can the ability Might of Heroes ( User or target of user in the unit he is in gains +d3 attacks ) be casted twice by an Epistolary Librarian since its done during the assault phase and is not considered a shooting attack?

Thoughts and is there a ruling I am missing some where that gives that CSM ruling a more recent erata? If not +d3 x2 can lead to some disgusting combos per say Lemartes who taken a wound or a Thunder Hammer Terminator in a group with the Librarian and a Chaplain.

Borris the Blade wrote:Was browsing a thread a few minutes ago that stated even if you block Mephiston from casting Wings of Sanguinis with a Psychic Hood that since its not a shooting attack it can be recasted as many times per turn as he is allowed to cast. This ruling is also backed up with examples in the Chaos Space Marine FAQ by GW, allowing abilties like Warp Time to be casted multiple times since its not a shooting attack. This leads me to the question can the ability Might of Heroes ( User or target of user in the unit he is in gains +d3 attacks ) be casted twice by an Epistolary Librarian since its done during the assault phase and is not considered a shooting attack?

Thoughts and is there a ruling I am missing some where that gives that CSM ruling a more recent erata? If not +d3 x2 can lead to some disgusting combos per say Lemartes who taken a wound or a Thunder Hammer Terminator in a group with the Librarian and a Chaplain.

From memory, I think that this is correct. So long as you are able to cast multiple powers a turn, you can cast the same one twice so long as it is not a shooting attack.

However, casting Might of Heroes twice doesn't do anything, as all it does is give the librarian a special rule saying "Add +D3 attacks". Once you have added D3 attacks, it satisfies both rules, the same way as having 2 instances of DoA don't cause a unit to scatter 2D6 less.

Sadly my BA codex is out with a friend atm and all I have to go by is army builder.

This power is used at the start of either player's assault phase. and if successful, the Librarian ( or any one other model in the same unit as the librarian ) gains +d3 attacks in that assault phase.

Just going by the way this is worded and assuming its not paraphrased from the BA codex or isn't missing additional text, this would imply that it does indeed stack. In example cast, make leadership test, if passed then target model gain d3 attack which are resolved immediately ( as in roll the d3 ) on that models current attacks that will be used in the assault phase. Then cast it again, make the leadership test, if passed then the target ( assuming you dont wish a different target ) gains an additional d3 attacks. To state otherwise would be to assume that the game in all instances doesn't allow stacking of modifiers, or having specific stated exceptions for when it does. Also if it was two librarians in the squad and each casted Might of Heroes on the same person I don't think there would be any arguement of that it stacks.

What I am looking for is maybe some thing a little more concrete to say that it can't be done or that part of some important text that is listed in BA codex listing of Might of Heroes is more specific then what I am seeing on Army Builder. What I am saying is not be rude to you Gwar on your interpetation that you posted, as in most of your posts you are spot on and only very rarely may I disagree with you.

As to the DoA, to be honest I can't see how it can be seen to even possibly stack as I see it more as a global rule for jump packs. The only tricky question with BA making DeepStrikes is how is it done from a BloodRaven with a Locater Beacon and jumping out it if it moves 24"?

Don't some powers need to be cast at the start of the shooting phase? Must these be cast at the same time?

Genuine questions btw

The shooting phase the brb actually covers very well. That a psychic shooting power can only be casted once during this phase unless you could normally fire two different weapons like a monsterous creature or a dreadnought, even so the same psychic shooting power can't be used again during this phase. Sadly casting anything else the brb is very vague as if all psykers could only cast one ability per turn. The CSM FAQ by GW goes into example of how other non shooting psychic abilties could be cast multiple times like Warp Time, if the user has the ability to cast more then once per turn.

Nothing indicates it stacks, as gaining D3 attacks satisfies any number of castings of the power.

For a similar idea look at Waaagh! banners, where any number still results in +1WS in total.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Nothing indicates it stacks, as gaining D3 attacks satisfies any number of castings of the power.

For a similar idea look at Waaagh! banners, where any number still results in +1WS in total.

Or Astropaths, or Hive Commander.

Nothing indicates it stacks, as gaining D3 attacks satisfies any number of castings of the power.

Then by that logic, saying I was 30" away from a Greyhunter Squad with 2 Rune Priests inside it and they both casts Living Lightning at single model, each rolling 1d6 to see how many Str 7 hits land on me woudln't be cumlative? If they can then, then it can be said 2 Librarian casting Might of Heroes on a single model in their unit stacks as well. If two librarians can stack Might of Heroes then what is the rule preventing an epistolary from casting it twice himself and thus stacking?

Borris the Blade wrote:

Nothing indicates it stacks, as gaining D3 attacks satisfies any number of castings of the power.

Then by that logic, saying I was 30" away from a Greyhunter Squad with 2 Rune Priests inside it and they both casts Living Lightning at single model, each rolling 1d6 to see how many Str 7 hits land on me woudln't be cumlative? If they can then, then it can be said 2 Librarian casting Might of Heroes on a single model in their unit stacks as well. If two librarians can stack Might of Heroes then what is the rule preventing an epistolary from casting it twice himself and thus stacking?

Errm, perhaps because 1 is a shooting attack and 1 isn't?

Seriously, if you are trying to make an argument, make one that isn't comparing apples to squid.

Not to mention we are not talking about 2 librarians casting the same powers, we are talking about 1 librarian casting the same power twice.

Even if you cast MoH with 2 Librarians onto 1 unit, the effects still do not stack, as you still have 2 special rules saying "Add +D3 attacks", and once you add +D3 attacks, both rules are happy.

Errm, perhaps because 1 is a shooting attack and 1 isn't?

Seriously, if you are trying to make an argument, make one that isn't comparing apples to squid.

Kinda of like using stacking example from the Astropath, Hive Commander, and Waggh Banners?

The example I used was was comparing a Psychic to a Psychic trying to illustrate stacking since there really is no other Psychic ability that I am immediately aware of that could be compared to the effects of Might of Heroes. I am also curious why you believe 2 librarians can stack the power but one Epistolary can't. The Epistolary will cast it once and the random attacks are rolled and applied to models number of attacks, then it casted again and d3 more added just as if a different Librarian in the unit casted Might of Heroes. This is allowed as it is not a shooting attack and each random number of attacks are applied to the target model before the second casting. If there is a specific rule that prevents this, then thats what I am looking for or a rule that prevent the stacking or cumlative effects from non shooting psychic abilities. With out a rule that prevents. the stacking of the effects, then it is clearly implied and stated that leads the reader to believe they do stack.

Borris the Blade wrote:I am also curious why you believe 2 librarians can stack the power but one Epistolary can't.

Did you bother reading my post?

Gwar! wrote:Even if you cast MoH with 2 Librarians onto 1 unit, the effects still do not stack, as you still have 2 special rules saying "Add +D3 attacks", and once you add +D3 attacks, both rules are happy.

You also have to remember that 40k tells you what you CAN do, not what you cannot do.

It doesn't say 2 MoH stack, so they do not. You cannot argue "It doesn't say they don't stack", because it also doesn't say I can't move all my Infantry 72" and make you move yours 1" (baring TMIR, but ignoring that as this is a RaW discussion).

The rule set is each time you cast the ability, said target gains d3 attcks. There is next to no difference to this as is the example of Living Lightning. EXCEPT it states very clearly that Psychic Shooting Attacks are limited to one use only. Your interpretation is not what I am asking for, the rules on it are clear and if the rules are clear then it is a RAW which states that when the ability is cast, that ability and time in paticular the target gains d3 attacks. What I am looking for and apparently I need to state it again, is if there is a rule that prevents the casting or the effect from taking hold because it was casted multiple times, then by all means please give me the source and page.


Example ( Oh No RL Example )

Gwar is standing in the bank by the merchant tellar

Borris hands Gwar a check for $3 with < insert routing number here > Check #137
Borris hands Gwar a check for $1 with < insert routing number here > Check #138

How much money has Gwar earned?

A) Raw says only $3 because its a check with a routing number and has a number filled in, so its happy and no other conditions can apply
B) Bizzaro Magic the Gathering Logic says only $1 as its the last thing on the stack and it takes presidence.
C) Logic and Law states you are entitled to $4. Gasp! As the checks stack as each has a routing number and seperate check #.
D) Nothing. Chuck Norris walked into the bank and took it from Gwar and left.


This is not a back and forth on what you think. I am interested in the rule in paticular for tournament play. I recall having the same back and forth with you about Sanguinary Shield / Stormcaller and we both know how INAT ruled on that, which other then a GW FaQ is really all I care about for tournaments.

Borris the Blade wrote:The shooting phase the brb actually covers very well. That a psychic shooting power can only be casted once during this phase unless you could normally fire two different weapons like a monsterous creature or a dreadnought, even so the same psychic shooting power can't be used again during this phase. Sadly casting anything else the brb is very vague as if all psykers could only cast one ability per turn. The CSM FAQ by GW goes into example of how other non shooting psychic abilties could be cast multiple times like Warp Time, if the user has the ability to cast more then once per turn.

I dont have any data on whether a non-shooting psychic power can be used more than once, however, I would warn against using one army's codex to inform you about a different army. Sometimes precedent can be set this way, however, armys often have different rules governing various things. Anyway, it seems to me that since only shooting attacks are restricted from being used twice, other activated psychic abilities may be used multiple times because they all read "May use up to X powers each turn" but never say anything about "different powers".

I just went and looked up the rules on the power in question and gwar! is, as usual, undeniably correct.

Gwar! has stated this before but you didnt seem to get it, so it will be said again. GW codex's run on a permissive rule set. If it doesnt say you can do it, you cant.

That being said, the rule clearly states when the power is cast the Librarian (or whatever model is casting) and the squad they are attached to gainst +D3 attacks.

It doesnt matter how many times the power is cast once they gain +D3 attacks the conditions have been met and a second casting is a waste. Using another very comparable power as an example. Warptime in the CSM codex allows for the re-rolling of all to hit and to wound with specified model. Even if i cast it twice, i only get to re-roll the dice once. Once the conditions of the power have been met, casting again will do nothing.

IF the rule stated "...the librarian and the squad they are attached to gains an additional D3 attacks for every instance the power is cast" then your logic would be correct. BUT IT DOESNT SAY THAT. JUST TO BE CLEAR.

If you wanna try to play your own rules thats fine, just dont expect others to play them. Also, on a forum like this, asking a question and demanding your own answer is correct really defeats the purpose.

Would this also allow an Inquisitor/Grandmaster to cast say Holocaust or Hammerhand more than once in the assault phase? Giving possibly 2 Str 5 large blasts?

Mookie

So just to be clear if two different Librians cast MoH on one IC, then tat IC only gets +d3 and not +2d3 attacks?

Not takig a side one way or the other but compaing this to warptime and abilities that provide cover saves are bad, because the rules state that you can never reroll a reroll, and you can only take one save, so having 2 5+ cover saves does nothing not because the power does not stack but because the rules say you can not benefot from multiple cover saves (just the best).

If something has Furious Charge twice does it gain +2S and +2I? no.

If a tank has 2 autocannons (and didnt move) can it shoot them both? yes.

the living lighting arguement is not a good one, and it does not apply in this situation.

[

GW codex's run on a permissive rule set. If it doesnt say you can do it, you cant.

Should take a look at the Eldar Codex on the ability Enhance. It goes out of its way to clearly state the ability can't be stacked. I am curious, why would a codex go way out of its way to state this? The rules are a very rigid and permissive rule set. no?


Spirit Stones have special rules stating they can't recast the same spell and the only item that can is Eldrads Staff.

First of all, nothing tells you that they stack, so therefore, the do not.

About your constant use of the Rune Priest example, it is horrible. You can't compare a shooting psychic attack, which has clear and specific ruling and use of it, to what you propose with MoH, that does not specifically allow what you want to do with MoH.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Borris the Blade wrote:[

GW codex's run on a permissive rule set. If it doesnt say you can do it, you cant.

Should take a look at the Eldar Codex on the ability Enhance. It goes out of its way to clearly state the ability can't be stacked. I am curious, why would a codex go way out of its way to state this? The rules are a very rigid and permissive rule set. no?


Spirit Stones have special rules stating they can't recast the same spell and the only item that can is Eldrads Staff.

Probably because they need to account for folks like you that would see the effects of Eldrad's Staff and apply it to Spirit Stones?

First of all, nothing tells you that they stack, so therefore, the do not.

Then please enlighten us on why GW went through the trouble to word enhance with the text saying that it doesn't stack? Why didn't they word Might of Heroes the same way to prevent stacking?

Borris the Blade wrote:[

GW codex's run on a permissive rule set. If it doesnt say you can do it, you cant.

Should take a look at the Eldar Codex on the ability Enhance. It goes out of its way to clearly state the ability can't be stacked. I am curious, why would a codex go way out of its way to state this? The rules are a very rigid and permissive rule set. no?


Spirit Stones have special rules stating they can't recast the same spell and the only item that can is Eldrads Staff.

So GW wanted it to be perfectly clear that the ability Enhance could not be stacked. Just because they specify in one place that it cant be stacked, doesnt mean everything else in every codex stacks. And you are still ignoring what i said earlier. GW codex's work on a permissive rule set. If it doesnt say you can do it, you cant. If you would stop and try to understand what that means you would see all of your examples are proved wrong.

Borris the Blade wrote:

First of all, nothing tells you that they stack, so therefore, the do not.

Then please enlighten us on why GW went through the trouble to word enhance with the text saying that it doesn't stack? Why didn't they word Might of Heroes the same way to prevent stacking?

Evfidence of redundancy in one area lets you infer nothing about a lack of this redundancy in other areas.

nosferatu1001

Ahh just like the redundancy of using the older rules from the Ork Codex and Tau Codex to try and prove your point on why Shield of Sanguinis and Stormcaller doesn't work on Vehicles. Pot calling the kettle black?

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Borris the Blade wrote:

First of all, nothing tells you that they stack, so therefore, the do not.

Then please enlighten us on why GW went through the trouble to word enhance with the text saying that it doesn't stack? Why didn't they word Might of Heroes the same way to prevent stacking?

Evfidence of redundancy in one area lets you infer nothing about a lack of this redundancy in other areas.

It lets me infer something: GW has absolutely no standard to go by in so far as how rules are written by the developers.

Borris the Blade wrote:nosferatu1001

Ahh just like the redundancy of using the older rules from the Ork Codex and Tau Codex to try and prove your point on why Shield of Sanguinis and Stormcaller doesn't work on Vehicles. Pot calling the kettle black?

You missed the point.

The redundant wording in one codex does not mean there is a requirement for other codexes to have similar redundant wording. For example the lack of a reminder on bikes not affecting ID toughness determination does not mean suddenly that bike would increase your toughness vs ID.

Similarly redundant wording in your example does not require similar redundant wording on the psychic power in question.

Edit: sorry this thread isnt coming up with the answer you wanted. Not our fault...

Peope claiming you can't stack because nothing says you can does that mean that Ork Nobz with Powerclaws are now S8 because nowhere does it tell me that the 2 bonus's stack?

Does that mean a unit of assault marines initiating assault only have 2 attacks as they +1A for being double armed and the +1A for charging are both satisfied by him having 2 attacks?

There is a precedent for attack additions to always stack and really don't see why this is different. Yes it is a permissive ruleset a model has 2 attacks say and I have an effect that increases that and then I hacve another effect that also increases it those effects would normally stack and the way the mechnic works would be to stack the benefit.

Borris the Blade wrote:In example cast, make leadership test, if passed then target model gain d3 attack which are resolved immediately ( as in roll the d3 ) on that models current attacks that will be used in the assault phase. Then cast it again,...

Except that the second time you try to cast it, as you have already performed an action in that phase it is no longer the start of the phase.

So you're only going to be able to cast it once per phase.

Except that the second time you try to cast it, as you have already performed an action in that phase it is no longer the start of the phase.

So you're only going to be able to cast it once per phase.

The implication of this logic is only 1 psychic power per phase in total which completely bones any psychic related army and isn't how the game in usually played.

insaniak wrote:

Borris the Blade wrote:In example cast, make leadership test, if passed then target model gain d3 attack which are resolved immediately ( as in roll the d3 ) on that models current attacks that will be used in the assault phase. Then cast it again,...

Except that the second time you try to cast it, as you have already performed an action in that phase it is no longer the start of the phase.

So you're only going to be able to cast it once per phase.

No one as answered my question of two different Librians each casting moH on the same IC. Will it work then?

FlingitNow wrote:Peope claiming you can't stack because nothing says you can does that mean that Ork Nobz with Powerclaws are now S8 because nowhere does it tell me that the 2 bonus's stack?

Does that mean a unit of assault marines initiating assault only have 2 attacks as they +1A for being double armed and the +1A for charging are both satisfied by him having 2 attacks?

There is a precedent for attack additions to always stack and really don't see why this is different. Yes it is a permissive ruleset a model has 2 attacks say and I have an effect that increases that and then I hacve another effect that also increases it those effects would normally stack and the way the mechnic works would be to stack the benefit.

Your examples have nothing in common with the problem at hand. Your examples talk about wargear, which is very different from a psychic power.

In longer words.

I assume your example with the power claw means Powerclaw + furious charge = strength 9. In that scenario powerclaws double the strength of the Nob. And furious assault gives +1 to strength on the charge. Both have different rules and were made as such to stack. Both items have different conditions that are met and are different in their entirety.

And your comparison of an assault marine is just silly. Yes he has 2 attacks. In no way shape or form is that a condition. CC weapon and bolt pistol grant +1 attack. As having both of those grant the +1 attack and the conditions and rewards are satisfied. Then Charging grants +1 attack. In the case of charging, if you charge the condition's and rewards are satisfied and +1 attack is granted. Totaling 4 attacks, if an assault marine has 2 base. (2 + 1 + 1 = 4) None of the wargear items are the same and their rules and conditions are separate.

The reason why your examples stack are because they are all different items that work together. Casting the same psyker power twice is an entirely different matter.