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Let's say I reserve my entire army turn one.

Turn two rolls around, which of these two is correct? Is the other illegal?

1) I point to each unit one at a time and roll a dice. If I get the reserve roll I immediately place that unit on the table.

2) I point to each unit one at a time and roll a dice. If successful, I place that unit aside. I then take my pool of successfully rolled-for units that are entering the table and pick and choose what I want to deploy in which order out of these successes.

You roll for each individual reserve unit, then after all units have been rolled for, deploy each unit that is being deployed this turn. P 94 "Rolling for reserves".

#2 IIRC. That's how we play at least, though I would be interested to know if that's wrong.

I don't think it is though.

Number one

Sorry for jacking this thread but can anyone tell me do you HAVE to roll for reserve each turn?I cant find it on the rule book, just give me a page number then I will go look through it, thanks!

Tony the guardsman wrote:Number one

Sorry for jacking this thread but can anyone tell me do you HAVE to roll for reserve each turn?I cant find it on the rule book, just give me a page number then I will go look through it, thanks!

It's hidden away under "Rolling for Reserves" on pg 94. First sentence.

...the player must roll a dice for each of his units in reserve.

The answer for this thread in on the same page, left column, last paragraph, first sentence:

Once all of the units have been rolled for, the player picks any one of the units arriving and deploys it.

Yup, roll for each and then deploy them in any order you like after each has had it's reserve roll.

Tony the guardsman wrote:Number one

Sorry for jacking this thread but can anyone tell me do you HAVE to roll for reserve each turn?I cant find it on the rule book, just give me a page number then I will go look through it, thanks!

as I said, P. 94.

"At the start of each of his movement phases except the first" means you must do it. They only add the "Note" afterwards for people who dont understand what the word "Each" means"

Note: you must roll for reserves as soon as possible and
must bring them onto the table as soon as they are
available. You may not delay making the dice rolls or
keep the reserves hanging around off-table until you
decide you need them!

Oh and number 1 is factually wrong.

It is #2, as has been pointed out by multiple posters in this thread. Tony the Guardsman is incorrect when it comes to the RaW.

To save me making another thread as this is related, assuming I'm playing using option 2 as that is the correct way to do it.

If I have an Autarch/some other way of modifying my reserve rolls would I have to decide if I am using the modifier a) after I have finished rolling all the reserve rolls (i.e I roll everything and then decide which rolls I apply the bonus to) or b) roll the reserve rolls one at a time and decide before rolling for the next unit.

For example this can occasionally be useful if I have all/most of my army in reserves and don't want to come on piecemeal. If I can decide which rolls have the modifier applied once all the rolls have been made then should I roll incredibly badly, I can decide to not apply it to any of the rolls etc. I generally have played b) as I'm not sure if a) is possible due to the way reserve rolls technically work (in practice many people will roll identical units at the same time to speed things up because normally it makes no difference).

Quick clarification would be good.

Nothing gives you permission to decide to apply after you have rolled everything, as you determine if each reserve unit comes in at the point you roll - not later on.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Nothing gives you permission to decide to apply after you have rolled everything, as you determine if each reserve unit comes in at the point you roll - not later on.

Actually I don't think that is true. The first thing is the INAT FAQ, but I know how some people feel about it so if you disagree with faq there's the other thing.
Nothing prevents me to roll all the dice at once. They are all determined when I roll - so at the same time. This means that I can use Autarchs skill having all the dice at the table.

Except fast dice rolling is only permissible when it does not alter the result - which in this case it does. SO you are restricted to rolling dice one at a time.

Ok, where is this fast dice rolling rule?
Also, nothing gives you permission to apply the bonus after every single roll. Does that mean I can never use it?

In the rules for "fast rolling". The default is you roll dice one at a time.

Erm, the Autarch rules give you specific permission to add +1 to the roll you make for each reserve unit. This means you can choose after you have rolled the dice for *that* unit to add the bonus or not - but nothing states you can roll all reserve unit first and THEN apply the bonus as you see fit. So your statement is in error.

And again, where is that "fast rolling" rule?

And that is not what Autarch Master Strategist rule sais. The interpretation can go this way but it's not the only way to read it.
Why can't I add 1 to my rolls after I made them all? I can see no MUST for choosing after every roll. I can't also see any CAN'T for rolling after all rolls have been made.

I guess we won't agree on this one for now. Anybody else can make some statement?

Macok wrote:And again, where is that "fast rolling" rule?

BRB, p.18. It referrs to shooting, but the mechanics are sound in any case.

And as was stated - you have no permission to roll the dice all together, so you cant.

Meaning you roll the dice one at a time, one after the other. If you choose not to modify that dice roll into a success, that unit does not come on. Once you move onto the next unit that roll is fixed as otherwise you could not have moved onto the next model.

In other words: show permission to roll all the dice together. If you cannot show permission to roll all the dice together, and fast dice rolling is the only permission in the book, then you cannot.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Nothing gives you permission to decide to apply after you have rolled everything, as you determine if each reserve unit comes in at the point you roll - not later on.

There is nothing in the BRB that says this. The rules say you roll a dice for each unit in reserve. It says that depending on the turn a certain result means a unit has arrived. It says you must roll for units as soon as possible and bring the unit on the table as soon as available. There is nothing that gives the mechanics of rolling for the reserves, just that a dice must be rolled for each unit.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except fast dice rolling is only permissible when it does not alter the result - which in this case it does. SO you are restricted to rolling dice one at a time.

Fast dice rolling is on page 18 and says that a unit fires all of its weapons simultaneously so all the to hit dice should be rolled together. It then goes on to give the mechanics (using different colored dice, etc.) Then on page 19 it again says that like rolling to hit, roll the 'to wound' dice together.

The autarch's rule says you may add 1 to reserve rolls, just as Tigurius's Gift of Prescience says you can choose to re-roll any reserve rolls. Neither of these rules, nor the reserve rules in the BRB says you must apply any modifiers or choose to re-roll a reserve roll before rolling for the next unit in reserve, just that all rolls must be made before any units are deployed.

So what allows you to roll all the dice together?

Show the permission to do so. I can show that rolling dice is a discrete event, and that the result of a dice roll is fixed once you start a new set of rolls.

Your method allows you to change your mind on using a once a game reroll after seeing how well you did on wounding, to go back and reroll a "to hit". A basic rule of the game is that after a point a result is obtained and you cant change it any longer.

nosferatu1001 wrote: So what allows you to roll all the dice together?

Fast dice rolling.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Show the permission to do so.

Page 18. I never said it applied to reserve rolls. That's why I separated the sentences. Fast rolling in the BRB just refers to hitting and wounding. Sorry if I confused you.

nosferatu1001 wrote: I can show that rolling dice is a discrete event, and that the result of a dice roll is fixed once you start a new set of rolls.

Please do. Show me where it is specified and quoted in the rolling for reserves section.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Your method allows you to change your mind on using a once a game reroll after seeing how well you did on wounding, to go back and reroll a "to hit". A basic rule of the game is that after a point a result is obtained and you cant change it any longer.

What method? I didn't state or quote any method I use. I merely pointed out the fast rolling rules, showed where they appeared in the rules. I never said that after rolling to wound you could go back and re-roll a "to hit" roll.
I agree that after a certain point is reached you don't go back, like after you begin moving a unit you can't go back and move any that have already moved. But rolling for reserves is not that specific.
As I mentioned, there is no mechanic in the rules that says "Roll for a unit in reserves. Re-roll for that unit and/or apply any modifiers if required or desired. Then roll for the next unit."
All the rules say is you roll for each unit in reserves and after rolling for them you move on any that are available.

Page 2, modifying dice rolls. They talk about a total, which is equivalent to a result.

You apply the general rules as given elsewhere - and as you are not given permission to roll multiple dice at once, you do not have permission to do so.

Hmm.. You don't expect people to believe it is illegal to roll several dices at once. It's the opposite of that:
"You may also be told to roll a number of dice in one go [...]" (page 2). And then it refers to 2D6, 3D6 etc. 'In one go'. I guess that pretty much allows me to roll them at once, doesn't it?
Next thing is: where is it written you can roll dice with your hand? I say: if you can't show me that passage - you can't roll it that way.

There is nothing on page 2 that even remotely asks to roll dice one by one. No restrictions of that kind on rolling is ever made.

To hit, then to wound rolls are definitely something else because one depends on the other. First hit, then wound. There is no sequence forced by the rulebook to roll for reserves. They are all simultaneous. After the rolls have been made THEN there is a one by one sequence of putting them on a table.

time wizard wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote: So what allows you to roll all the dice together?

Fast dice rolling.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Show the permission to do so.

Page 18. I never said it applied to reserve rolls. That's why I separated the sentences. Fast rolling in the BRB just refers to hitting and wounding. Sorry if I confused you.

nosferatu1001 wrote: I can show that rolling dice is a discrete event, and that the result of a dice roll is fixed once you start a new set of rolls.

Please do. Show me where it is specified and quoted in the rolling for reserves section.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Your method allows you to change your mind on using a once a game reroll after seeing how well you did on wounding, to go back and reroll a "to hit". A basic rule of the game is that after a point a result is obtained and you cant change it any longer.

What method? I didn't state or quote any method I use. I merely pointed out the fast rolling rules, showed where they appeared in the rules. I never said that after rolling to wound you could go back and re-roll a "to hit" roll.
I agree that after a certain point is reached you don't go back, like after you begin moving a unit you can't go back and move any that have already moved. But rolling for reserves is not that specific.
As I mentioned, there is no mechanic in the rules that says "Roll for a unit in reserves. Re-roll for that unit and/or apply any modifiers if required or desired. Then roll for the next unit."
All the rules say is you roll for each unit in reserves and after rolling for them you move on any that are available.

Nosferatu1001 is unequivocally 100% correct. Time Wizard, Powerguy, Macok, please direct your attention to P 94 Reserves: "The player must roll a dice (a die for Americans) for each [note the word "Each"]of his units in reserve." and there is no "Fast Rolling" section which explicitly permits mass dice rolling for reserves. Since it allows for shady things to happen, one must roll for each reserve unit one at a time as that is what the default is and there is nothing else which explicitly allows mass rolling.

Please address one point before you address anything else: What is the default? Rolling mass dice? or rolling one die at a time? (note the word "Each).

Powerguy wrote:To save me making another thread as this is related, assuming I'm playing using option 2 as that is the correct way to do it.

If I have an Autarch/some other way of modifying my reserve rolls would I have to decide if I am using the modifier a) after I have finished rolling all the reserve rolls (i.e I roll everything and then decide which rolls I apply the bonus to) or b) roll the reserve rolls one at a time and decide before rolling for the next unit.

The direct answer to your question here is that since each reserve roll is a discrete event, you must roll a single die, figure out its result and move on to the second and third etc. The difference between something like a Digital Weapon and reserve rolls is that Rolling to wound is one discrete event and you roll all your To Wound dice and then choose one to reroll; each reserve (note the use of the word "Each"), is discrete from each (note the word "Each") other.

time wizard wrote:As I mentioned, there is no mechanic in the rules that says "Roll for a unit in reserves. Re-roll for that unit and/or apply any modifiers if required or desired. Then roll for the next unit."

There shouldn't need to be. If the rules allow you to re-roll a given result, I would take it as a given that you do that immediately after making the initial roll. Once you have moved on to doing something else, whether that be making another roll or a different action entirely, you have finished that first action.

Sure, you might not find a rule that specifically requires this... but I doubt you would find too many opponents who would let you choose to go back to a previous roll and alter it.

Macok wrote:Hmm.. You don't expect people to believe it is illegal to roll several dices at once. It's the opposite of that:
"You may also be told to roll a number of dice in one go [...]" (page 2). And then it refers to 2D6, 3D6 etc. 'In one go'. I guess that pretty much allows me to roll them at once, doesn't it?
Next thing is: where is it written you can roll dice with your hand? I say: if you can't show me that passage - you can't roll it that way.

Why do you think there is a section that states how to "Fast Roll"? Furthermore, please show me where in the reserves section where it says "Roll Xd6 where X= the number of reserves", it doesn't, thus, your point is irrelevant about "Rolling a number of dice".

I can show you where it allows me to "roll >>>>A<<<< dice (Again 'die' for Americans) for >>>>EACH<<<< reserve" and you cant show me where it says you are allowed to roll more than 1 at a time.

Macok wrote:Hmm.. You don't expect people to believe it is illegal to roll several dices at once. It's the opposite of that:
"You may also be told to roll a number of dice in one go [...]" (page 2). And then it refers to 2D6, 3D6 etc. 'In one go'. I guess that pretty much allows me to roll them at once, doesn't it?

Except that that rule only applies when you are told to roll 2D6. are you told to roll 2D6 here or 1D6? Then follow the rules for 1D6....

Macok wrote:Next thing is: where is it written you can roll dice with your hand? I say: if you can't show me that passage - you can't roll it that way.

Incorrect, you are told to roll die. The actual mechanism is not specified, you just have to satisfy the condition that you have rolled the dice.

Macok wrote:There is nothing on page 2 that even remotely asks to roll dice one by one. No restrictions of that kind on rolling is ever made.

incorrect. They talk about rolling a die in the Reserves rule. Now, unless you have a rule gratnign you permission to roll more than one, you cannot - and this is the point. You are asking "why cant I..." when you should be asking "Why can I...."

Macok wrote:To hit, then to wound rolls are definitely something else because one depends on the other. First hit, then wound. There is no sequence forced by the rulebook to roll for reserves. They are all simultaneous. After the rolls have been made THEN there is a one by one sequence of putting them on a table.

No they are not, it states roll 1 dice for each unit. for each is a discrete event.

visavismeyou wrote:Nosferatu1001 is unequivocally 100% correct. Time Wizard, Powerguy, Macok, please direct your attention to P 94 Reserves: "The player must roll a dice (a die for Americans) for each [note the word "Each"]of his units in reserve." and there is no "Fast Rolling" section which explicitly permits mass dice rolling for reserves. Since it allows for shady things to happen, one must roll for each reserve unit one at a time as that is what the default is and there is nothing else which explicitly allows mass rolling.

Please address one point before you address anything else: What is the default? Rolling mass dice? or rolling one die at a time? (note the word "Each).

Ok, so first thing answering your question: there is no "default". At least there are no rules that say what the default is.

As for a dice/die for EACH unit in reserve:
a) I have 5 units in reserve, then take 5 dice to my hand and roll them together. Have I rolled a dice for each of my unit in reserve? Yes. I have fulfilled a rule so I'm ok.
b) Shooting also requires you to 'roll a D6 for EACH shot'. Must I make my rolls separately? Before you talk about Fast Rolling. There is no rule just about "fast rolling". There is however rule for fast rolling with different weapons. So I cannot make fast rolls with all the same weapons in my squad? If you want to pick on words (like you did with 'each') there is no CAN or MUST in speed rolling section. Only SHOULD. This doesn't give me permission, it sais I should but in fact I can't because NOWHERE in rulebook there is a rule that allows me to do that. The only place I get the permission is when I have different weapons firing.
Also those "fast rolling" rules apply only for To Hit during shooting with different weapons. I hope no one ever broke the rules and rolled 2 dices for wounding a target. Or with single Assault 2 weapon.

The way I see this paragraph is it is a guideline for situations when you want to roll several dice at once, but some events are different than others. Not that I am allowed to roll several dice at once. I guess that it doesn't matter what I think but what is written.

@nosferatu1001:
I guess Xd6 don't apply here.
But: just see a) above
Did I fulfil everything I was asked to do? Yes. The actual mechanism isn't specified either. I successfully rolled a dice for each unit in reserve.
I'm not saying they are not a discrete events. I just want them to be simultaneous, not sequential.



Still, nobody proven to me that even if I'm wrong here I am FORCED to modify my rolls immediately - after each roll. Just modify the result not specifying when.

a) however the rules for dice rolling only mention rolling a single dice, on page 2. So if you dont havea rule allowing you to roll more than 1 dice at the same time for each event you CANNOT do it.

You lack permission, that is the problem - permissivie ruleset.

b) No, because FAST ROLLING applies. Page 18. Done?

If you have 2 weapons, you have 2 different weapons - even if they have the same stats. You assume different meaning "different abilities" yet that is not a requirement.

You are forced, by sequential roling (as a proves above) that you have to achieve a result before rolling the next one - otherwise you have not rolled that dice, it is still in limbo. It is EXACTLY the same as having an ability to use a once-per-game reroll on a to-hit after seeing that you havent wounded enough - you reroll one of the misses to get another chance to wound. Your viewpoint reqiures this outcome, no matter your protestations otherwise.

And around we go again...

I think this one needs a rest.