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So Im reading the DA codex today and honestly Im not seeing why so many people are complaining about how sucky and terrible the DA are. Sure they dont get ALL the cool things that some of the newer SM codex get. So is there something Im missing, or is it one of those, better on paper not actually playing kind of thing?

DA isn't an instant lose but it is an up hill climb. C:SM can do almost everything (not termie's as scoring) cheaper and better.

KingCracker wrote:So Im reading the DA codex today and honestly Im not seeing why so many people are complaining about how sucky and terrible the DA are. Sure they dont get ALL the cool things that some of the newer SM codex get. So is there something Im missing, or is it one of those, better on paper not actually playing kind of thing?

It's not complaints about "how sucky and terrible" they are.

It's how stupid some of the choices made for the Codex's statlines/unit placement are.

Best example? Scout Squads and their options, the size restraints on Deathwing Terminator Squads(seriously. Why can I not up them to 10 man and Combat Squad it?), Company Veteran Squads and Storm Shields.

DA Codex Storm Shields are a 4+ Invulnerable Save--which is only usable in Close Combat-- while the standard Codex ones are a 3+ against -anything-.

Dark Angel Scout Squads as elites is just bothersome to me, as I like Scouts and would love to actually take them(same with Company Veterans)--but there's no use for them compared to Venerable Dreadnoughts.

It's not a bad book it''s just many other books are better. As previously stated it's an up hill battle and it takes a better player to win with a bad book (No personal attack here, just a general statement).

Yeah, I agree with the cheaper C: SM. My normal DA regular company at 1500 pts is worth 1375ish pts range in the exact same set up in the vanilla marines codex. I could fit an extra Dreadnought with the SM codex. The gear is better across the board in the SM codex. But, they are not an auto-lose by any means. I still win with them. It is a struggle, but I think that adds to the fun of it.

Well, you might need to consider the DA codex from a different angle.
DW and RW work more like scalpels if you compare with Termie or Bike heavy SM armies.
They are more expensive and so smaller in numbers.

I almost got into playing DA. I went to the local FGS and talked to the staff and they were all "OHHHH DA ROCK MAN! YEAH! All termies FTW! You can't go wrong bro, no way, do it up, you won't regret!"
Then a week later after buying the book, the new space marine book comes out. I go back to the store.

"Can i use the new Marine Dex with my DA one?"
"nope! thats against the rules"
"but the new marine dex seems to be able to do what DA can do, only better, and cheaper"
"yup! too bad, but ALL termie army! think of it!"
"I have. Heres the DA codex. I'd like an in store credit"

lol Yea I think its a bit weird that the other SM dexs are not interchangeable at least in some way.

and having 1375 pts worth of SM for 1500 in DA is a big lump. But I do see some cool stuff they are able to do. Thanks for clearing it all up gentlemen

Here is why I hate it. Azrael and Master of the Ravenwing in Landspeeder aside, make a decent HQ unit...let me know when you give up

They don't suck. They're just suffering from a bit of codex creep since they're dex is so old.

Tau and Crons have the same issues (well, not exactly, but you know what I mean).

Xca|iber wrote:They don't suck. They're just suffering from a bit of codex creep since their dex is so old.

Tau and Necrons have the same issues (well, not exactly, but you know what I mean).

You'd have a point if there wasn't the issue of things just being so dramatically different than the Space Marine Codex published a year or two later.

Well, GW pays too less attention to specific armies or races.
When a new edition comes out, they immediately present a new (vanilla) SM codex.
That's it.

wuestenfux wrote:Well, GW pays too less attention to specific armies or races.
When a new edition comes out, they immediately present a new (vanilla) SM codex.
That's it.

You're making no sense.

This isn't a question of something being overpowered or "BUT THEY HAVE MORE SPECIAL RULES!".

It's things that are inconsistent across two books. It's almost like Codex: Dark Angels was the "beta" for C: Space Marines.

Volkov wrote:Here is why I hate it. Azrael and Master of the Ravenwing in Landspeeder aside, make a decent HQ unit...let me know when you give up

Just about anything in terminator armor is decent. Also, Interrogator chaplains are a decent buy.

Honestly, I love DA's and have been playing them forever. My main reasons for sticking around are Dualwing (Belial, Samael) and my deathstar of Azrael.

I'm sorry guys, but this guy gives a 4++ to his whole damn squad. Have you ever seen the green tide in apocalypse with a 4++? gak is scary.

DA have a lot to offer if you know what to look for. Here is a Tourney Report were I took them to a local FLGS and won the tourney with them.

http://40kwreckingcrew.aceboard.com/331128-602-3096-0-reports.htm

Just about anything in terminator armor is decent. Also, Interrogator chaplains are a decent buy.

Honestly, I love DA's and have been playing them forever. My main reasons for sticking around are Dualwing (Belial, Samael) and my deathstar of Azrael.

I'm sorry guys, but this guy gives a 4++ to his whole damn squad. Have you ever seen the green tide in apocalypse with a 4++? gak is scary.

Belial takes the cake as the weakest Space marine hero of all time. And yes Azrael does rock, but I did say excluding him...

Volkov wrote:

Just about anything in terminator armor is decent. Also, Interrogator chaplains are a decent buy.

Honestly, I love DA's and have been playing them forever. My main reasons for sticking around are Dualwing (Belial, Samael) and my deathstar of Azrael.

I'm sorry guys, but this guy gives a 4++ to his whole damn squad. Have you ever seen the green tide in apocalypse with a 4++? gak is scary.

Belial takes the cake as the weakest Space marine hero of all time. And yes Azrael does rock, but I did say excluding him...

Yes, Belial is week =(...

Librarians aren't all that bad, just a meh flame template most of the time. I do love Force Barrier though!

I've had no problems using DA, they have some very powerful HQ choices such as Sammael, and can seriously hurt your opponent's forces if used correctly. Ekeziel can force an enemy model within 24" to take a Ld test, with those that fail being instantly removed, and because no wounds are inflicted, no saves can be taken against this.

Valk

Kanluwen wrote:

Xca|iber wrote:They don't suck. They're just suffering from a bit of codex creep since their dex is so old.

Tau and Necrons have the same issues (well, not exactly, but you know what I mean).

You'd have a point if there wasn't the issue of things just being so dramatically different than the Space Marine Codex published a year or two later.

I was under the impression that the codex was much older... my bad.

That'll teach me to post about an army I don't play

Belial is weak?
You're kidding.
All SM special characters are weak in some sense since they can be instantly killed (I remember one exception).
Games with Space Marines are generally not won by HQ's.

The book has been faq'd http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1810079_DarkAngels_Oct_2008_5th_Edition_FAQ.pdf so you should have no problem using the new equipment. Yes things are a little more expensive and restricted, but turn it around with scoring mixed terminator squads with t-hammers and cyclone missile launchers!

Ok super elite armies are going to be an uphill struggle, but it doesn't mean they don't work. I quite enjoy my deathwing (stupid skirt wearing, secret chaos lovers that they are!), although I do prefer Logan Wing!

Xca|iber wrote:They don't suck. They're just suffering from a bit of codex creep since they're dex is so old.

Tau and Crons have the same issues (well, not exactly, but you know what I mean).

Nah, Dark Angels were widely recognised as a weak codex when they were released. Codex creep is overstated, while there is probably a general trend upwards it isn't a straight line, there's a lot of variation up and down from codex to codex.


At the end of the day, Dark Angels would be a really tough choice to take to a tournament, but most games aren't played in a really competitive tournament atmosphere. Most games are played with armies geared back their absolutely most lethal, and the Dark Angels can build some pretty interesting competitive builds around that points level.